3 ms·

>Facial recognition has very few applications outside of total surveillance. That's not really for you to decide, is it? You're absolutely free to have that o

by jcims 6y ago

>Facial recognition has very few applications outside of total surveillance. That's not really for you to decide, is it? You're absolutely free to have that opinion of course. >We should not respect those who lend it their time and effort. Also your choice of course. Facial recognition is essentially a light integration of powerful underlying technologies. Should 'we' ostracize those working on machine learning, computer vision, network and distributed computing, etc?

hopfscotch2 6y ago
If they want to use it to enable surveillance, yes.
TehCorwiz 6y ago
You didn't really address the author's point which was that there don't appear to be compelling uses of facial technology beyond mass automated surveillance. I can't think of other uses and I'd be interested if you can come up with some.
- nitrogen 6y ago
  Biometric authentication is one that comes to mind. Facial recognition running locally on my own photo library would also be useful for organizing photos. A cloud-free local-only home automation system that can tell the difference between owners/housemates/guests and customize behavior accordingly would also be nice.
  - sk0g 6y ago
    I'm looking into YOLO for this, but it's moreso to verify your selfie == image on document, and we want to avoid sending highly sensitive information to third party providers. The current service we use, while accurate, costs 50 cents per verification... Edit: reading through this thread, if the model isn't super massive, we could offer on-browser verification! 27MB is still a hefty download though.
- sterlind 6y ago
  Labeling photos with who's in them, either on social media or in private image albums (creating indexes of people in your photos.) Arguably this is a front for mass surveillance, or can easily be misused for that, but the ostensible purpose is separate and benign.
- canada_dry 6y ago
  Here's one: identifying child soldiers. [i] https://www.pyimagesearch.com/2020/05/11/an-ethical-application-of-computer-vision-and-deep-learning-identifying-child-soldiers-through-automatic-age-and-military-fatigue-detection/ https://www.pyimagesearch.com/2020/05/11/an-ethical-applicat...
- homarp 6y ago
  Some compelling use: 1) assistance to recognizing people (because low vision, because memory fails, because you have a lot of photos...) 2) ensure candidate X is actually candidate X and not a paid person to take the exam in name of candidate X 3) door access control (to replace/in addition to access card) 4) having your own X-Ray (like in Amazon Prime): identify an actor/actress/model 5) having your personal robot addressing you by name
  - homarp 6y ago
    also, having models that can run locally on "cheap enough" devices is also quite interesting that you more or less understand. Compared to using API in the cloud or purchasing Hikvision cameras.
    - tropshop 6y ago
      Just getting into this. Do you recommend any particular "dumb" camera devices with a quality stream?
      - homarp 6y ago
        what's your price range? indoor or outdoor? where do you want to do the inference?
  - heavyset_go 6y ago
    > 2) ensure candidate X is actually candidate X and not a paid person to take the exam in name of candidate X Can you imagine the bureaucratic nightmare that would be unleashed upon yourself if "the system" decides you aren't who you say you are because of the way you aged, an injury, surgery or a few new freckles? This already happens sometimes with birth certificates and identity theft, and it's awful for those who have to experience it. I'd hate to have a black box AI inflicting that upon others for inexplicable reasons.
lm28469 6y ago
The question is always the same: is every technical/scientific progress desirable ? But it seems that this question isn't asked anymore, "move fast and break things" am I right ? I'm much more worried about people using your arguments to try and shut down the discussion than people trying to open the debate, because once the mass surveillance/face recognition mass adoption pandora's box is open there won't be any way to go back. When I see predator drones and FBI stingray planes above every major us cities during protests I already know we're not going in the "let's talk about this before reaching the point no return" direction.
- wiz21c 6y ago
  >>> When I see predator drones and FBI stingray planes above every major us cities during protests Can you provide evidence for this ? Not that I doubt it, but if I want to tell other people that story, I must have evidence to be believed :-) edit: ah of course, 30 seconds of duckduckgo just provide the info I need : https://thehill.com/homenews/house/501445-democrats-press-dhs-over-use-of-drone-during-minneapolis-protests https://thehill.com/homenews/house/501445-democrats-press-dh...
  - lm28469 6y ago
    Yes and plenty of other sources: https://www.aclu.org/blog/privacy-technology/surveillance-technologies/fbi-releases-secret-spy-plane-footage-freddie-gray https://www.aclu.org/blog/privacy-technology/surveillance-te... https://www.wired.com/2016/01/california-police-used-stingrays-in-planes-to-spy-on-phones/ https://www.wired.com/2016/01/california-police-used-stingra... https://chicago.cbslocal.com/2014/12/06/activists-say-chicago-police-used-stingray-eavesdropping-technology-during-protests/ https://chicago.cbslocal.com/2014/12/06/activists-say-chicag... Once the tech is out there it's simply a question of "when" will it be used for borderline illegal activities, especially in the US where you have these different entities (fbi, cia, nsa, dea, &c.) basically acting in their own bubble and doing whatever they want until it's leaked and/or gets outrageous enough to get the public attention. I mean, there were unidentified armed forces marching in US streets last week, if people don't se this as the biggest red flag in recent US history I don't know what they need. https://www.vice.com/en_us/article/akzvy8/unidentified-law-enforcement-officers-are-mysteriously-showing-up-at-dc-protests https://www.vice.com/en_us/article/akzvy8/unidentified-law-e... https://www.nbcnews.com/politics/white-house/i-was-horrified-democrats-seek-outlaw-unmarked-police-they-patrol-n1225016 https://www.nbcnews.com/politics/white-house/i-was-horrified...
descenter 6y ago
> Facial recognition is essentially a light integration of powerful underlying technologies. Should 'we' ostracize those working on machine learning, computer vision, network and distributed computing, etc? Couldn't you argue the same way against just about any kind of IED or booby trap? Yet people tend to ostracize those who make them more than they do people who make ball bearings and nails.
- jcims 6y ago
  Who in Iraq was getting ostracized by their family and friends for making IEDs?

by jcims 6y ago

hopfscotch2 6y ago

If they want to use it to enable surveillance, yes.

TehCorwiz 6y ago

You didn't really address the author's point which was that there don't appear to be compelling uses of facial technology beyond mass automated surveillance. I can't think of other uses and I'd be interested if you can come up with some.

nitrogen 6y ago
Biometric authentication is one that comes to mind. Facial recognition running locally on my own photo library would also be useful for organizing photos. A cloud-free local-only home automation system that can tell the difference between owners/housemates/guests and customize behavior accordingly would also be nice.
- sk0g 6y ago
  I'm looking into YOLO for this, but it's moreso to verify your selfie == image on document, and we want to avoid sending highly sensitive information to third party providers. The current service we use, while accurate, costs 50 cents per verification... Edit: reading through this thread, if the model isn't super massive, we could offer on-browser verification! 27MB is still a hefty download though.
sterlind 6y ago
Labeling photos with who's in them, either on social media or in private image albums (creating indexes of people in your photos.) Arguably this is a front for mass surveillance, or can easily be misused for that, but the ostensible purpose is separate and benign.
canada_dry 6y ago
Here's one: identifying child soldiers. [i] https://www.pyimagesearch.com/2020/05/11/an-ethical-application-of-computer-vision-and-deep-learning-identifying-child-soldiers-through-automatic-age-and-military-fatigue-detection/ https://www.pyimagesearch.com/2020/05/11/an-ethical-applicat...
homarp 6y ago
Some compelling use: 1) assistance to recognizing people (because low vision, because memory fails, because you have a lot of photos...) 2) ensure candidate X is actually candidate X and not a paid person to take the exam in name of candidate X 3) door access control (to replace/in addition to access card) 4) having your own X-Ray (like in Amazon Prime): identify an actor/actress/model 5) having your personal robot addressing you by name
- homarp 6y ago
  also, having models that can run locally on "cheap enough" devices is also quite interesting that you more or less understand. Compared to using API in the cloud or purchasing Hikvision cameras.
  - tropshop 6y ago
    Just getting into this. Do you recommend any particular "dumb" camera devices with a quality stream?
    - homarp 6y ago
      what's your price range? indoor or outdoor? where do you want to do the inference?
- heavyset_go 6y ago
  > 2) ensure candidate X is actually candidate X and not a paid person to take the exam in name of candidate X Can you imagine the bureaucratic nightmare that would be unleashed upon yourself if "the system" decides you aren't who you say you are because of the way you aged, an injury, surgery or a few new freckles? This already happens sometimes with birth certificates and identity theft, and it's awful for those who have to experience it. I'd hate to have a black box AI inflicting that upon others for inexplicable reasons.

lm28469 6y ago

The question is always the same: is every technical/scientific progress desirable ? But it seems that this question isn't asked anymore, "move fast and break things" am I right ? I'm much more worried about people using your arguments to try and shut down the discussion than people trying to open the debate, because once the mass surveillance/face recognition mass adoption pandora's box is open there won't be any way to go back. When I see predator drones and FBI stingray planes above every major us cities during protests I already know we're not going in the "let's talk about this before reaching the point no return" direction.

wiz21c 6y ago
>>> When I see predator drones and FBI stingray planes above every major us cities during protests Can you provide evidence for this ? Not that I doubt it, but if I want to tell other people that story, I must have evidence to be believed :-) edit: ah of course, 30 seconds of duckduckgo just provide the info I need : https://thehill.com/homenews/house/501445-democrats-press-dhs-over-use-of-drone-during-minneapolis-protests https://thehill.com/homenews/house/501445-democrats-press-dh...
- lm28469 6y ago
  Yes and plenty of other sources: https://www.aclu.org/blog/privacy-technology/surveillance-technologies/fbi-releases-secret-spy-plane-footage-freddie-gray https://www.aclu.org/blog/privacy-technology/surveillance-te... https://www.wired.com/2016/01/california-police-used-stingrays-in-planes-to-spy-on-phones/ https://www.wired.com/2016/01/california-police-used-stingra... https://chicago.cbslocal.com/2014/12/06/activists-say-chicago-police-used-stingray-eavesdropping-technology-during-protests/ https://chicago.cbslocal.com/2014/12/06/activists-say-chicag... Once the tech is out there it's simply a question of "when" will it be used for borderline illegal activities, especially in the US where you have these different entities (fbi, cia, nsa, dea, &c.) basically acting in their own bubble and doing whatever they want until it's leaked and/or gets outrageous enough to get the public attention. I mean, there were unidentified armed forces marching in US streets last week, if people don't se this as the biggest red flag in recent US history I don't know what they need. https://www.vice.com/en_us/article/akzvy8/unidentified-law-enforcement-officers-are-mysteriously-showing-up-at-dc-protests https://www.vice.com/en_us/article/akzvy8/unidentified-law-e... https://www.nbcnews.com/politics/white-house/i-was-horrified-democrats-seek-outlaw-unmarked-police-they-patrol-n1225016 https://www.nbcnews.com/politics/white-house/i-was-horrified...

descenter 6y ago

> Facial recognition is essentially a light integration of powerful underlying technologies. Should 'we' ostracize those working on machine learning, computer vision, network and distributed computing, etc? Couldn't you argue the same way against just about any kind of IED or booby trap? Yet people tend to ostracize those who make them more than they do people who make ball bearings and nails.

jcims 6y ago
Who in Iraq was getting ostracized by their family and friends for making IEDs?