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I'm not sure how realistic this is on a commercial scale. There are a bunch of people doing this for their own solar offgrid projects, maybe even a few doing it

I'm not sure how realistic this is on a commercial scale. There are a bunch of people doing this for their own solar offgrid projects, maybe even a few doing it as a cottage industry. However, I can't really see striping, testing and reconfiguring lithium batteries being a big part of future solar farms.

brianwawok 6y ago
In a few years will be hundreds of thousands of Tesla EV batteries getting to the point they want replaced. If we can find a use for them it’s pretty awesome.
- NotSammyHagar 6y ago
  Tesla has been talking about this for years and I've already read about old ev batteries used for this purpose. So its a good idea.
  - toomuchtodo 6y ago
    Tesla's previous CTO, JB Straubel, left to found Redwood Materials. He intends to commercialize recycling of batteries at scale, and the rumor is Tesla will be a customer of the output from Redwood for battery manufacturing. https://www.cnbc.com/2018/09/06/tesla-cto-jb-straubel-redwood-materials-recycling-expands-nevada.html https://www.cnbc.com/2018/09/06/tesla-cto-jb-straubel-redwoo...
    - brianwawok 6y ago
      Would be sweet. Could bring new life (and new range) into a 10 year old car to swap in the battery.
      - deleted 6y ago
        [deleted]
  - hinkley 6y ago
    I think the problem is mostly logistics. To get good use out of an old array, you have to QA all of the cells and discard the worst ones, because when you wire batteries in sequence (to get higher voltage), then the weakest link effect is very prominent. And if memory serves, to get the most out of a battery array you want to 'match' the cells, so you have to bin the used batteries the same way Intel bins CPUs. If memory serves, you have to charge a battery to measure this, which takes time and therefore space. So to get the cost to be cheaper than just building a new pack (possibly using binned new packs), this all has to be pretty automated. If they bin new cells (if they don't maybe they should!), then most of this hardware would already exist. Which would mean you only need to talk about how to make a robot to desolder battery packs. Given how crap my soldering skills are this feels like a potentially hard or at least expensive problem.
    - ecpottinger 6y ago
      You don't have to do that to a Tesla battery. The individual cells when they go bad disconnect themselves using a fuse wire. All you have to do is test the pack to see how much power it can store.
    - tonyedgecombe 6y ago
      I saw a film about battery recycling recently and the first thing they have to do with incoming cells is discharge them. They were using the energy to power the site. Clearly it wouldn’t be much more work to cycle the batteries.
      - hinkley 6y ago
        I recall something like that too, but they worked it a bit like a counter-flow heat exchanger - drain one batch of cells to charge another.
  - xedeon 6y ago
    https://www.tesla.com/ns_videos/2019-tesla-impact-report.pdf https://www.tesla.com/ns_videos/2019-tesla-impact-report.pdf Look at the Battery Recycling section.
mikestew 6y ago
Back when Nissan was doing their dog-and-pony show ("come take a test drive!" in a very controlled environment) for the Leaf (2009), that was their exact spiel for what would be done with the batteries when they were past their prime. Now that the early Leafs are at the point of needing new batteries, I'm curious if Nissan is following through (but not curious enough to go looking.)
- ragebol 6y ago
  Well there you go: https://www.johancruijffarena.nl/default-showon-page/amsterdam-arena-more-energy-efficient-with-battery-storage-.htm https://www.johancruijffarena.nl/default-showon-page/amsterd... (from comment by louwrentius)
  - mikestew 6y ago
    Thanks for the link (you, too, louwrentius), I think I might have grown just a little less cynical today.
    - Melting_Harps 6y ago
      > Thanks for the link... That is very cool, and that was done during the Ghosn pump/dump era no less; as a long time Nissan enthusiast, which then turned being a technician for Nissan for a period I knew Nissan was involved in tons of new tech: Radar based Cruise control was available back in 2002, CVT transmissions, they were one of the first to adopt throttle by wire, and if you've even been in a GTR its more video game than it was car, especially when it first came out. So these battery's being up-cycled is not so much a surprise, either. I only recently, like a year ago or so, found out they had Aerospace division since 1953 and even had a facility in Mountain View. To think this the same company that was insolvent in the crash of the Japanese Bubble era of the 90s, they really did try to expand into to so many sectors, much like Yamaha, but didn't really get the same notoriety because of it. In fact most non car people, especially in Japan, will recall their real estate holdings collapse alongside the Nikkei index, which was really their core business. It's dark days for Nissan right now, and as a die-hard Nissan fan boy I hope they separate from Renault and make it out of this as their transition to a more EV lineup manufacturer is looking promising, as does their I2V technology but it shows how first-mover advantage can be destroyed from within by short-sighted crooks like Carlos Ghosn (that is a wanted fugitive in Japan after fleeing in some crazy movie-like scenario with ex green berets [1]) and the complicate delivery systems and dealerships that created horrible incentives. 1: https://www.armytimes.com/news/your-army/2020/06/09/former-green-beret-and-son-accused-in-ex-nissan-boss-escape-scheme-fight-extradition/ https://www.armytimes.com/news/your-army/2020/06/09/former-g...
Havoc 6y ago
Perhaps if the facility is designed with a lot of fault tolerance from the start? Some places aren't short on space so should be fine if you can separate things enough to mitigate fire risk?
ip26 6y ago
The farm itself probably wouldn't be doing it, but buying from someone who does. I find myself thinking of lead acid battery recycling: https://www.energy-storage.news/news/lead-acid-batteries-are-us-most-recycled-products-trade-group-says https://www.energy-storage.news/news/lead-acid-batteries-are...
jotm 6y ago
Why not? Refurbishing of household appliances and electronics is a big industry, for example.

brianwawok 6y ago

In a few years will be hundreds of thousands of Tesla EV batteries getting to the point they want replaced. If we can find a use for them it’s pretty awesome.

NotSammyHagar 6y ago
Tesla has been talking about this for years and I've already read about old ev batteries used for this purpose. So its a good idea.
- toomuchtodo 6y ago
  Tesla's previous CTO, JB Straubel, left to found Redwood Materials. He intends to commercialize recycling of batteries at scale, and the rumor is Tesla will be a customer of the output from Redwood for battery manufacturing. https://www.cnbc.com/2018/09/06/tesla-cto-jb-straubel-redwood-materials-recycling-expands-nevada.html https://www.cnbc.com/2018/09/06/tesla-cto-jb-straubel-redwoo...
  - brianwawok 6y ago
    Would be sweet. Could bring new life (and new range) into a 10 year old car to swap in the battery.
    - deleted 6y ago
      [deleted]
- hinkley 6y ago
  I think the problem is mostly logistics. To get good use out of an old array, you have to QA all of the cells and discard the worst ones, because when you wire batteries in sequence (to get higher voltage), then the weakest link effect is very prominent. And if memory serves, to get the most out of a battery array you want to 'match' the cells, so you have to bin the used batteries the same way Intel bins CPUs. If memory serves, you have to charge a battery to measure this, which takes time and therefore space. So to get the cost to be cheaper than just building a new pack (possibly using binned new packs), this all has to be pretty automated. If they bin new cells (if they don't maybe they should!), then most of this hardware would already exist. Which would mean you only need to talk about how to make a robot to desolder battery packs. Given how crap my soldering skills are this feels like a potentially hard or at least expensive problem.
  - ecpottinger 6y ago
    You don't have to do that to a Tesla battery. The individual cells when they go bad disconnect themselves using a fuse wire. All you have to do is test the pack to see how much power it can store.
  - tonyedgecombe 6y ago
    I saw a film about battery recycling recently and the first thing they have to do with incoming cells is discharge them. They were using the energy to power the site. Clearly it wouldn’t be much more work to cycle the batteries.
    - hinkley 6y ago
      I recall something like that too, but they worked it a bit like a counter-flow heat exchanger - drain one batch of cells to charge another.
- xedeon 6y ago
  https://www.tesla.com/ns_videos/2019-tesla-impact-report.pdf https://www.tesla.com/ns_videos/2019-tesla-impact-report.pdf Look at the Battery Recycling section.

mikestew 6y ago

Back when Nissan was doing their dog-and-pony show ("come take a test drive!" in a very controlled environment) for the Leaf (2009), that was their exact spiel for what would be done with the batteries when they were past their prime. Now that the early Leafs are at the point of needing new batteries, I'm curious if Nissan is following through (but not curious enough to go looking.)

ragebol 6y ago
Well there you go: https://www.johancruijffarena.nl/default-showon-page/amsterdam-arena-more-energy-efficient-with-battery-storage-.htm https://www.johancruijffarena.nl/default-showon-page/amsterd... (from comment by louwrentius)
- mikestew 6y ago
  Thanks for the link (you, too, louwrentius), I think I might have grown just a little less cynical today.
  - Melting_Harps 6y ago
    > Thanks for the link... That is very cool, and that was done during the Ghosn pump/dump era no less; as a long time Nissan enthusiast, which then turned being a technician for Nissan for a period I knew Nissan was involved in tons of new tech: Radar based Cruise control was available back in 2002, CVT transmissions, they were one of the first to adopt throttle by wire, and if you've even been in a GTR its more video game than it was car, especially when it first came out. So these battery's being up-cycled is not so much a surprise, either. I only recently, like a year ago or so, found out they had Aerospace division since 1953 and even had a facility in Mountain View. To think this the same company that was insolvent in the crash of the Japanese Bubble era of the 90s, they really did try to expand into to so many sectors, much like Yamaha, but didn't really get the same notoriety because of it. In fact most non car people, especially in Japan, will recall their real estate holdings collapse alongside the Nikkei index, which was really their core business. It's dark days for Nissan right now, and as a die-hard Nissan fan boy I hope they separate from Renault and make it out of this as their transition to a more EV lineup manufacturer is looking promising, as does their I2V technology but it shows how first-mover advantage can be destroyed from within by short-sighted crooks like Carlos Ghosn (that is a wanted fugitive in Japan after fleeing in some crazy movie-like scenario with ex green berets [1]) and the complicate delivery systems and dealerships that created horrible incentives. 1: https://www.armytimes.com/news/your-army/2020/06/09/former-green-beret-and-son-accused-in-ex-nissan-boss-escape-scheme-fight-extradition/ https://www.armytimes.com/news/your-army/2020/06/09/former-g...

Havoc 6y ago

Perhaps if the facility is designed with a lot of fault tolerance from the start? Some places aren't short on space so should be fine if you can separate things enough to mitigate fire risk?

ip26 6y ago

The farm itself probably wouldn't be doing it, but buying from someone who does. I find myself thinking of lead acid battery recycling: https://www.energy-storage.news/news/lead-acid-batteries-are-us-most-recycled-products-trade-group-says https://www.energy-storage.news/news/lead-acid-batteries-are...

jotm 6y ago

Why not? Refurbishing of household appliances and electronics is a big industry, for example.