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I know you're specifying amateur comedy, but it's not so clear what's up or down. A lot of people think Dave Chappelle punches down, but is he really?[1] "Come

by Reedx 6y ago

I know you're specifying amateur comedy, but it's not so clear what's up or down. A lot of people think Dave Chappelle punches down, but is he really?[1] "Comedy is subjective, and it's offensive, it really is. And people are making these imaginary rules, like, 'Comedy can punch up, but it can't punch down.' No, comedy punches down too sometimes, sorry. You don't make up the rules for my business without consulting a few of us. This is just people deciding these random rules about my business, and they're not even the funny people at their office, probably." - Jerry Seinfeld "Who decides what’s punching up and punching down? I have a routine about these comedians writing articles in the Guardian, trying to set the rules of comedy, insisting that we should never punch down. And I say sometimes you’ve got to punch down." - Ricky Gervais Also, it's important to understand what the actual target of the joke is. Chris Rock sums it up as, "Talk about what they do, not what they are"[2]. I think that's a useful rule of thumb. 1. https://arcdigital.media/dave-chappelle-punches-up-55dfe906efb8 https://arcdigital.media/dave-chappelle-punches-up-55dfe906e... 2. https://youtu.be/OKY6BGcx37k?t=2533 https://youtu.be/OKY6BGcx37k?t=2533

sudhirj 6y ago
This gets interesting, especially with Dave Chapelle, but professional comedians like Dave and Seinfeld etc. have one very specific attribute that allows them to punch up, sideways and even down – everyone always knows they're joking (sometimes even when they're not). And comedians have no power of their own, so they can speak truth to power as much as they want. The problem is only when someone with power punches down, unlike a professional comedian (who has no power over the group s/he's punching at). That's fine, we can all laugh at ourselves. There's also a problem with punching down when you're not a professional comedian, because now nobody knows you're joking. If you try this, you'll sound racist/classist/sexist/elitist. The rules about comedy don't apply to professional comedians, because you know if they break them they're still trying to funny. Just like if a beginner plays a bad note on a piano, it's a novice mistake, but if a master does it it's dissonance that shakes your soul.
- whatok 6y ago
  > The rules about comedy don't apply to professional comedians, because you know if they break them they're still trying to funny. I don't think this is true in the modern age. Countless non-established or up and coming comedians and adjacents have gotten fired for one-off remarks in old material or social media posts. If there's a constantly evolving list (which no one person on Earth is completely aware of in its entirety because of constant evolution) of "problematic" topics that will get you fired, all you will end up with is bad comedy. More than 30 years after its release, Eddie Murphy was basically forced to apologize for Raw; undisputed one of the greatest standup specials by one of the greatest comedians of all-time. People were calling for a boycott of Netflix because of Chappelle and Seinfeld gets shit for his remarks all the time. If these were up-and-coming comedians, they would not have a career.
  - pvg 6y ago
    Who has been fired for 'one off remarks'? Older work getting re-evaluated, viewed from a different angle, etc, is more or less how culture works. Murphy or Seinfeld don't seem to be any worse for the wear at all.
    - whatok 6y ago
      > Who has been fired for 'one off remarks'? Google "comedians fired social media" or "comedians fired old material". If not one-off remarks then a tiny percentage of overall material. > Older work getting re-evaluated, viewed from a different angle, etc, is more or less how culture works. I have no problem with anyone taking a nuanced look through an entire piece while also considering the time and place when it was published. What I do have a problem with is cherry-picking through an hour plus of material and branding an entire work "problematic" or worse for a handful of jokes that were mainstream funny at the time and clearly jokes; the whole point of the profession. Most of this is amplified by social media and its ability to share short, out of context clips of anything but unfortunately there are real consequences that arise from that. > Murphy or Seinfeld don't seem to be any worse for the wear at all. Both of those guys are some of the greatest to ever do it. They also both have a lot of money. They're well-insulated from the consequences that others may face for similar actions; whether they be too big to blacklist or not suffering the loss of income that may devastate others.
pjc50 6y ago
The thing about punching down is that, because of the power differential, you don't hear back when you've gone too far. You may even get the victim smiling and laughing along with you, for their own safety. But people remember, and talk among themselves, and your name becomes known, and maybe one day there's a huge backlash. And the backlash looks disproportionate, but should really be considered in proportion to the decades of incidents it's in response to. (You can see this happening in real time with statues of racists, especially in the UK)
- whatok 6y ago
  Name one notable comedian who has made their career from solely "punching down" and not from being genuinely funny. This is a borderline non-existent problem that has its own self-filtering mechanism; no one is going to pay money to see a set of someone solely "punching down".
nbardy 6y ago
Interesting point. Chapelle can hardly punch anywhere, but down at this point with the amount of success he has had.
fwip 6y ago
Ricky Gervais and Jerry Seinfeld are both well known for complaining that they can't make jokes like they used to anymore. I think Ricky Gervais's last special had an extended bit about how Asian people sometimes mix up their L's and R's. Seinfeld seemed flabbergasted that college students didn't think that "kids be texting and that's bad" was a good routine a couple years back. They're just bad comedians relying on material that's decades out of date, and blaming their inability to remain relevant to the youth on "anti-PC" culture.

by Reedx 6y ago

sudhirj 6y ago

This gets interesting, especially with Dave Chapelle, but professional comedians like Dave and Seinfeld etc. have one very specific attribute that allows them to punch up, sideways and even down – everyone always knows they're joking (sometimes even when they're not). And comedians have no power of their own, so they can speak truth to power as much as they want. The problem is only when someone with power punches down, unlike a professional comedian (who has no power over the group s/he's punching at). That's fine, we can all laugh at ourselves. There's also a problem with punching down when you're not a professional comedian, because now nobody knows you're joking. If you try this, you'll sound racist/classist/sexist/elitist. The rules about comedy don't apply to professional comedians, because you know if they break them they're still trying to funny. Just like if a beginner plays a bad note on a piano, it's a novice mistake, but if a master does it it's dissonance that shakes your soul.

whatok 6y ago
> The rules about comedy don't apply to professional comedians, because you know if they break them they're still trying to funny. I don't think this is true in the modern age. Countless non-established or up and coming comedians and adjacents have gotten fired for one-off remarks in old material or social media posts. If there's a constantly evolving list (which no one person on Earth is completely aware of in its entirety because of constant evolution) of "problematic" topics that will get you fired, all you will end up with is bad comedy. More than 30 years after its release, Eddie Murphy was basically forced to apologize for Raw; undisputed one of the greatest standup specials by one of the greatest comedians of all-time. People were calling for a boycott of Netflix because of Chappelle and Seinfeld gets shit for his remarks all the time. If these were up-and-coming comedians, they would not have a career.
- pvg 6y ago
  Who has been fired for 'one off remarks'? Older work getting re-evaluated, viewed from a different angle, etc, is more or less how culture works. Murphy or Seinfeld don't seem to be any worse for the wear at all.
  - whatok 6y ago
    > Who has been fired for 'one off remarks'? Google "comedians fired social media" or "comedians fired old material". If not one-off remarks then a tiny percentage of overall material. > Older work getting re-evaluated, viewed from a different angle, etc, is more or less how culture works. I have no problem with anyone taking a nuanced look through an entire piece while also considering the time and place when it was published. What I do have a problem with is cherry-picking through an hour plus of material and branding an entire work "problematic" or worse for a handful of jokes that were mainstream funny at the time and clearly jokes; the whole point of the profession. Most of this is amplified by social media and its ability to share short, out of context clips of anything but unfortunately there are real consequences that arise from that. > Murphy or Seinfeld don't seem to be any worse for the wear at all. Both of those guys are some of the greatest to ever do it. They also both have a lot of money. They're well-insulated from the consequences that others may face for similar actions; whether they be too big to blacklist or not suffering the loss of income that may devastate others.

pjc50 6y ago

The thing about punching down is that, because of the power differential, you don't hear back when you've gone too far. You may even get the victim smiling and laughing along with you, for their own safety. But people remember, and talk among themselves, and your name becomes known, and maybe one day there's a huge backlash. And the backlash looks disproportionate, but should really be considered in proportion to the decades of incidents it's in response to. (You can see this happening in real time with statues of racists, especially in the UK)

whatok 6y ago
Name one notable comedian who has made their career from solely "punching down" and not from being genuinely funny. This is a borderline non-existent problem that has its own self-filtering mechanism; no one is going to pay money to see a set of someone solely "punching down".

nbardy 6y ago

Interesting point. Chapelle can hardly punch anywhere, but down at this point with the amount of success he has had.

fwip 6y ago

Ricky Gervais and Jerry Seinfeld are both well known for complaining that they can't make jokes like they used to anymore. I think Ricky Gervais's last special had an extended bit about how Asian people sometimes mix up their L's and R's. Seinfeld seemed flabbergasted that college students didn't think that "kids be texting and that's bad" was a good routine a couple years back. They're just bad comedians relying on material that's decades out of date, and blaming their inability to remain relevant to the youth on "anti-PC" culture.