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The biggest advantages of PHP over Java are build and deploy times, so coding a php app is much more rapid. You can test your app right away, even after a singl

The biggest advantages of PHP over Java are build and deploy times, so coding a php app is much more rapid. You can test your app right away, even after a single line change and get immediate feedback on the screen, which I think is important in web dev because a lot of it is visual. The other advantage is the run-time. Java has a slow startup time and when you redeploy then you need to stop/start your entire app. With php you can fix / update one part of your app without the need for a server restart. Another advantage is that php runs each request with a clean state, that means all the variables get destroyed after the request, helping to avoiding memory leaks, and possibly issues with concurrency which Java exposes. Types are great, but sometimes they can get in the way too and slow you down, (I still haven't figured out what those <funny> types mean). In all, development in PHP is so much faster and easier over Java.

joelbluminator 6y ago
> Another advantage is that php runs each request with a clean state, that means all the variables get destroyed after the request, helping to avoiding memory leaks, and possibly issues with concurrency which Java exposes Care to elaborate? How is that different than java web frameworks?
- ben509 6y ago
  In a Java web framework, your classes have static fields, so user code or any library can assign values to them. Language support for a request being ephemeral is far more effective than frameworks proposing it as a good practice. And everyone working on PHP libraries in C know what a request is and that it ought to be ephemeral, so even outside the core language there's a clearer understanding.
jrimbault 6y ago
> Another advantage is that php runs each request with a clean state PHP apps are almost guaranteed to be "stateless", thus scaling up and down is quasi-painless also.
- bpizzi 6y ago
  OTOH, sometime you need state, then you feel stuck with a half-finished language.
  - jakearmitage 6y ago
    What are you using state for in a web app or API?
    - bpizzi 6y ago
      Yeah sure, no need for state in a CRUD API. But while it is the most common use case for PHP applications (well actually for application written in scripting languages working with http servers), it's not the only use case. When the only place where you can put state is the database then every piece of state is written in the database. Which lead to intelligent individuals (no pun/offense intended) to write clever piece of infra such as Redis. The truth is, for 10 Redis deployment there's 7 (8? 6? Well, a substantial part) where a long living process holding little state would have done the trick. Now you need to deploy, maintain and scale Redis too.
      - pak9rabid 6y ago
        What's wrong with using session variables for maintaining state?
        watermelon0 6y ago
        Session variables are tied to user sessions (like name suggests), so they cannot be used to persist application state (e.g. cached content, compiled templates, metrics, etc.)
        bpizzi 6y ago
        Exactly. I see downvotes on my GP post, I'm simply stating the fact: if you need state for a building a powerful webapp then obviously there's better runtimes that PHP+Apache, I don't see how one could disagree with that statement, apart from not having sufficient experience in that matter. There's plenty of good reasons to counterbalance that fact thought, PHP has a very good ecosystem, multiple mature/powerful web frameworks, and cheap/abundant workforce. But it lacks a state holding runtime and for the most demanding applications it's a sufficiently big technical hassle to encourage seeking other runtime and/or language.
specialist 6y ago
Recently did some nodejs work. It was surprisingly fun. There are A LOT of sharp edges, but working "closer to the metal" is great. Fast deploy and startup is GREAT. Am an early, vocal Java partisan. Java world HTTP servers fell into a ditch and kept digging. Servlets and JSP weren't too bad. Wasn't crazy about Tomcat or NetSuite, but ok. Then it just got more and more nutty. J2EE, Spring, XML, schemas, annotations, etc. There's nothing about Java that rules out simple and quick. For medical records stuff, I replaced a huge J2EE/BizTalk style backend with stupid simple process runner for stupid simple tasks. Think Windows OS Task Manager running AWS Lambdas. In conclusion, I remain sad about the enterprisey detour Java took.
james-mcelwain 6y ago
For what it's worth, Java has hit code reloading, even though it doesn't work perfectly all the time.
cutler 6y ago
For one step beyond edit/save/refresh try repl development in Clojure where you get the benefits of the JVM without the startup penalty. After the initial boot, that is.

joelbluminator 6y ago

> Another advantage is that php runs each request with a clean state, that means all the variables get destroyed after the request, helping to avoiding memory leaks, and possibly issues with concurrency which Java exposes Care to elaborate? How is that different than java web frameworks?

ben509 6y ago
In a Java web framework, your classes have static fields, so user code or any library can assign values to them. Language support for a request being ephemeral is far more effective than frameworks proposing it as a good practice. And everyone working on PHP libraries in C know what a request is and that it ought to be ephemeral, so even outside the core language there's a clearer understanding.

jrimbault 6y ago

> Another advantage is that php runs each request with a clean state PHP apps are almost guaranteed to be "stateless", thus scaling up and down is quasi-painless also.

bpizzi 6y ago
OTOH, sometime you need state, then you feel stuck with a half-finished language.
- jakearmitage 6y ago
  What are you using state for in a web app or API?
  - bpizzi 6y ago
    Yeah sure, no need for state in a CRUD API. But while it is the most common use case for PHP applications (well actually for application written in scripting languages working with http servers), it's not the only use case. When the only place where you can put state is the database then every piece of state is written in the database. Which lead to intelligent individuals (no pun/offense intended) to write clever piece of infra such as Redis. The truth is, for 10 Redis deployment there's 7 (8? 6? Well, a substantial part) where a long living process holding little state would have done the trick. Now you need to deploy, maintain and scale Redis too.
    - pak9rabid 6y ago
      What's wrong with using session variables for maintaining state?
      - watermelon0 6y ago
        Session variables are tied to user sessions (like name suggests), so they cannot be used to persist application state (e.g. cached content, compiled templates, metrics, etc.)
        bpizzi 6y ago
        Exactly. I see downvotes on my GP post, I'm simply stating the fact: if you need state for a building a powerful webapp then obviously there's better runtimes that PHP+Apache, I don't see how one could disagree with that statement, apart from not having sufficient experience in that matter. There's plenty of good reasons to counterbalance that fact thought, PHP has a very good ecosystem, multiple mature/powerful web frameworks, and cheap/abundant workforce. But it lacks a state holding runtime and for the most demanding applications it's a sufficiently big technical hassle to encourage seeking other runtime and/or language.

specialist 6y ago

Recently did some nodejs work. It was surprisingly fun. There are A LOT of sharp edges, but working "closer to the metal" is great. Fast deploy and startup is GREAT. Am an early, vocal Java partisan. Java world HTTP servers fell into a ditch and kept digging. Servlets and JSP weren't too bad. Wasn't crazy about Tomcat or NetSuite, but ok. Then it just got more and more nutty. J2EE, Spring, XML, schemas, annotations, etc. There's nothing about Java that rules out simple and quick. For medical records stuff, I replaced a huge J2EE/BizTalk style backend with stupid simple process runner for stupid simple tasks. Think Windows OS Task Manager running AWS Lambdas. In conclusion, I remain sad about the enterprisey detour Java took.

james-mcelwain 6y ago

For what it's worth, Java has hit code reloading, even though it doesn't work perfectly all the time.

cutler 6y ago

For one step beyond edit/save/refresh try repl development in Clojure where you get the benefits of the JVM without the startup penalty. After the initial boot, that is.