6 ms·

What are the "modern" features of php? It looks like it's trying to shed it's dynamic nature and add types (with annotations etc). Also frameworks like Symfony

What are the "modern" features of php? It looks like it's trying to shed it's dynamic nature and add types (with annotations etc). Also frameworks like Symfony / Laravel look more and more like java web frameworks to me. I'm not saying this is necessarily bad but there's nothing modern about types. Also, might make more sense to choose java if you need types.

bouncycastle 6y ago
The biggest advantages of PHP over Java are build and deploy times, so coding a php app is much more rapid. You can test your app right away, even after a single line change and get immediate feedback on the screen, which I think is important in web dev because a lot of it is visual. The other advantage is the run-time. Java has a slow startup time and when you redeploy then you need to stop/start your entire app. With php you can fix / update one part of your app without the need for a server restart. Another advantage is that php runs each request with a clean state, that means all the variables get destroyed after the request, helping to avoiding memory leaks, and possibly issues with concurrency which Java exposes. Types are great, but sometimes they can get in the way too and slow you down, (I still haven't figured out what those <funny> types mean). In all, development in PHP is so much faster and easier over Java.
- joelbluminator 6y ago
  > Another advantage is that php runs each request with a clean state, that means all the variables get destroyed after the request, helping to avoiding memory leaks, and possibly issues with concurrency which Java exposes Care to elaborate? How is that different than java web frameworks?
  - ben509 6y ago
    In a Java web framework, your classes have static fields, so user code or any library can assign values to them. Language support for a request being ephemeral is far more effective than frameworks proposing it as a good practice. And everyone working on PHP libraries in C know what a request is and that it ought to be ephemeral, so even outside the core language there's a clearer understanding.
- jrimbault 6y ago
  > Another advantage is that php runs each request with a clean state PHP apps are almost guaranteed to be "stateless", thus scaling up and down is quasi-painless also.
  - bpizzi 6y ago
    OTOH, sometime you need state, then you feel stuck with a half-finished language.
    - jakearmitage 6y ago
      What are you using state for in a web app or API?
      - bpizzi 6y ago
        Yeah sure, no need for state in a CRUD API. But while it is the most common use case for PHP applications (well actually for application written in scripting languages working with http servers), it's not the only use case. When the only place where you can put state is the database then every piece of state is written in the database. Which lead to intelligent individuals (no pun/offense intended) to write clever piece of infra such as Redis. The truth is, for 10 Redis deployment there's 7 (8? 6? Well, a substantial part) where a long living process holding little state would have done the trick. Now you need to deploy, maintain and scale Redis too.
        pak9rabid 6y ago
        What's wrong with using session variables for maintaining state?
        watermelon0 6y ago
        Session variables are tied to user sessions (like name suggests), so they cannot be used to persist application state (e.g. cached content, compiled templates, metrics, etc.)
- specialist 6y ago
  Recently did some nodejs work. It was surprisingly fun. There are A LOT of sharp edges, but working "closer to the metal" is great. Fast deploy and startup is GREAT. Am an early, vocal Java partisan. Java world HTTP servers fell into a ditch and kept digging. Servlets and JSP weren't too bad. Wasn't crazy about Tomcat or NetSuite, but ok. Then it just got more and more nutty. J2EE, Spring, XML, schemas, annotations, etc. There's nothing about Java that rules out simple and quick. For medical records stuff, I replaced a huge J2EE/BizTalk style backend with stupid simple process runner for stupid simple tasks. Think Windows OS Task Manager running AWS Lambdas. In conclusion, I remain sad about the enterprisey detour Java took.
- james-mcelwain 6y ago
  For what it's worth, Java has hit code reloading, even though it doesn't work perfectly all the time.
- cutler 6y ago
  For one step beyond edit/save/refresh try repl development in Clojure where you get the benefits of the JVM without the startup penalty. After the initial boot, that is.
tonyedgecombe 6y ago
Whatever the language there is always a group of people slowly turning it into Java. It seems almost impossible to say no to new features.
- cutler 6y ago
  Dart is another example. Not exactly Java but certainly built in its likeness. What is it with aping Java's verbosity which, to many, is an embarrassment?
hrktb 6y ago
Symfony is directly inspired by Spring, and Laravel is an based on Symfony, so yes, that's the direction they are going. I kinda hate that trend, but it satisfies a cross section of devs who want "serious" enterprise looking code base but don't want to move from PHP. It's still noticeably different from Java, even with the heavy typing and all the inspiration.
- AegirLeet 6y ago
  Laravel uses some Symfony components, but it isn't based on Symfony. Laravel was heavily inspired by Rails.
dgb23 6y ago
> Also, might make more sense to choose java if you need types. Java is not a replacement for "PHP with types". There is currently nothing you can deploy as easily as a PHP web app. The operational overhead is very low because cheap, robust hosting providers have decades of experience with the most typical LAMP style stack. I would also disagree in terms of language features. Gradual typing through type hints (and other 'on demand'-style consistency features) is a very ergonomic way to introduce consistency during development (plus implied performance optimizations). You write in 'free-dynamic-mode' initially and then add type hints where they make sense bit by bit, typically in function signatures. There are many examples of this in the (semi?) dynamic world.
- watermelon0 6y ago
  You couldn't be more wrong about the ease of deployment. PHP is one of the hardest things to deploy. You need at least a web server and a process manager. Most popular choices are nginx + PHP-FPM or Apache + libapache2-mod-php. You also need to learn how to properly configure both of them, since both have like a million options, and default installation doesn't work in a lot of cases (e.g. uploading of files larger than a few MB). If you don't want to use libapache2-mod-php, you will have to figure out how to deploy two different services, which makes things difficult in a Docker environment. --- As opposite to that, deployment story with Go, Rust, and similar compiled-to-a-single-binary languages, is a lot easier. Just drop the binary to a server or add it to a Docker container.
  - icedchai 6y ago
    Many smaller PHP web sites are deployed on VPSes and managed with CPanel or Plesk control panels. None of what you describe is necessary. The web server is pre-configured and PHP settings can be easily changed. Even setting up PHP on Ubuntu or CentOS is a 5 minute job. Tweaking configuration settings for max upload, max post size, etc. are very common and well understood. Once everything is in place, most deployments are as simple as copying the new build over and changing a symlink. No process restarts, nothing.
    - 6y ago

bouncycastle 6y ago

The biggest advantages of PHP over Java are build and deploy times, so coding a php app is much more rapid. You can test your app right away, even after a single line change and get immediate feedback on the screen, which I think is important in web dev because a lot of it is visual. The other advantage is the run-time. Java has a slow startup time and when you redeploy then you need to stop/start your entire app. With php you can fix / update one part of your app without the need for a server restart. Another advantage is that php runs each request with a clean state, that means all the variables get destroyed after the request, helping to avoiding memory leaks, and possibly issues with concurrency which Java exposes. Types are great, but sometimes they can get in the way too and slow you down, (I still haven't figured out what those <funny> types mean). In all, development in PHP is so much faster and easier over Java.

joelbluminator 6y ago
> Another advantage is that php runs each request with a clean state, that means all the variables get destroyed after the request, helping to avoiding memory leaks, and possibly issues with concurrency which Java exposes Care to elaborate? How is that different than java web frameworks?
- ben509 6y ago
  In a Java web framework, your classes have static fields, so user code or any library can assign values to them. Language support for a request being ephemeral is far more effective than frameworks proposing it as a good practice. And everyone working on PHP libraries in C know what a request is and that it ought to be ephemeral, so even outside the core language there's a clearer understanding.
jrimbault 6y ago
> Another advantage is that php runs each request with a clean state PHP apps are almost guaranteed to be "stateless", thus scaling up and down is quasi-painless also.
- bpizzi 6y ago
  OTOH, sometime you need state, then you feel stuck with a half-finished language.
  - jakearmitage 6y ago
    What are you using state for in a web app or API?
    - bpizzi 6y ago
      Yeah sure, no need for state in a CRUD API. But while it is the most common use case for PHP applications (well actually for application written in scripting languages working with http servers), it's not the only use case. When the only place where you can put state is the database then every piece of state is written in the database. Which lead to intelligent individuals (no pun/offense intended) to write clever piece of infra such as Redis. The truth is, for 10 Redis deployment there's 7 (8? 6? Well, a substantial part) where a long living process holding little state would have done the trick. Now you need to deploy, maintain and scale Redis too.
      - pak9rabid 6y ago
        What's wrong with using session variables for maintaining state?
        watermelon0 6y ago
        Session variables are tied to user sessions (like name suggests), so they cannot be used to persist application state (e.g. cached content, compiled templates, metrics, etc.)
specialist 6y ago
Recently did some nodejs work. It was surprisingly fun. There are A LOT of sharp edges, but working "closer to the metal" is great. Fast deploy and startup is GREAT. Am an early, vocal Java partisan. Java world HTTP servers fell into a ditch and kept digging. Servlets and JSP weren't too bad. Wasn't crazy about Tomcat or NetSuite, but ok. Then it just got more and more nutty. J2EE, Spring, XML, schemas, annotations, etc. There's nothing about Java that rules out simple and quick. For medical records stuff, I replaced a huge J2EE/BizTalk style backend with stupid simple process runner for stupid simple tasks. Think Windows OS Task Manager running AWS Lambdas. In conclusion, I remain sad about the enterprisey detour Java took.
james-mcelwain 6y ago
For what it's worth, Java has hit code reloading, even though it doesn't work perfectly all the time.
cutler 6y ago
For one step beyond edit/save/refresh try repl development in Clojure where you get the benefits of the JVM without the startup penalty. After the initial boot, that is.

tonyedgecombe 6y ago

Whatever the language there is always a group of people slowly turning it into Java. It seems almost impossible to say no to new features.

cutler 6y ago
Dart is another example. Not exactly Java but certainly built in its likeness. What is it with aping Java's verbosity which, to many, is an embarrassment?

hrktb 6y ago

Symfony is directly inspired by Spring, and Laravel is an based on Symfony, so yes, that's the direction they are going. I kinda hate that trend, but it satisfies a cross section of devs who want "serious" enterprise looking code base but don't want to move from PHP. It's still noticeably different from Java, even with the heavy typing and all the inspiration.

AegirLeet 6y ago
Laravel uses some Symfony components, but it isn't based on Symfony. Laravel was heavily inspired by Rails.

dgb23 6y ago

> Also, might make more sense to choose java if you need types. Java is not a replacement for "PHP with types". There is currently nothing you can deploy as easily as a PHP web app. The operational overhead is very low because cheap, robust hosting providers have decades of experience with the most typical LAMP style stack. I would also disagree in terms of language features. Gradual typing through type hints (and other 'on demand'-style consistency features) is a very ergonomic way to introduce consistency during development (plus implied performance optimizations). You write in 'free-dynamic-mode' initially and then add type hints where they make sense bit by bit, typically in function signatures. There are many examples of this in the (semi?) dynamic world.

watermelon0 6y ago
You couldn't be more wrong about the ease of deployment. PHP is one of the hardest things to deploy. You need at least a web server and a process manager. Most popular choices are nginx + PHP-FPM or Apache + libapache2-mod-php. You also need to learn how to properly configure both of them, since both have like a million options, and default installation doesn't work in a lot of cases (e.g. uploading of files larger than a few MB). If you don't want to use libapache2-mod-php, you will have to figure out how to deploy two different services, which makes things difficult in a Docker environment. --- As opposite to that, deployment story with Go, Rust, and similar compiled-to-a-single-binary languages, is a lot easier. Just drop the binary to a server or add it to a Docker container.
- icedchai 6y ago
  Many smaller PHP web sites are deployed on VPSes and managed with CPanel or Plesk control panels. None of what you describe is necessary. The web server is pre-configured and PHP settings can be easily changed. Even setting up PHP on Ubuntu or CentOS is a 5 minute job. Tweaking configuration settings for max upload, max post size, etc. are very common and well understood. Once everything is in place, most deployments are as simple as copying the new build over and changing a symlink. No process restarts, nothing.
  - 6y ago