4 ms·

No, it's not true. If you followed closely their APM was hamstringed to the point of being lower than players in many cases. In many of the playbacks I've seen

by loufe 6y ago

No, it's not true. If you followed closely their APM was hamstringed to the point of being lower than players in many cases. In many of the playbacks I've seen it is the strategy that helped them win. Though when they lose against grandmasters it is often obviously poor decisions caused by a rabbit hole of thinking.

FeepingCreature 6y ago
The one thing I was really wishing they'd demonstrate but that I don't think they did was a functional understanding of hidden information, ie. natural scouting and positioning to catch hidden moving units that you've seen glimpses of. I didn't see anything of that in the games, the AI won afaict largely on a superior understanding of economy.
- ajuc 6y ago
  In the game after they introduced camera movement speed limits the AI lost pretty badly to warp prism harrasement. It reacted like a noob (moving the whole army back and forth instead of splitting it). That was a version that was trained for shorter time, though. I'd say AI won mostly because of better micro and less mistakes, but I haven't seen the most recent games, maybe that changed?
JRKrause 6y ago
This isn't true. Alphastar achieved super-human APM, in excess of 1500, in short bursts. Even if it's average APM was lower than a human this is still not a good comparison because it's value-per-click (e.g. not misclicking) is going to be extremely high. It's victories were largely due to superior micro control and a highly effective method of judging it's relative power in an engagement(i.e. when to push an engagement versus retreating). I think this says more about Starcraft II as a game than it does about the learning ability of DNNs. When you have perfect Stalker micro, nothing else in SC2 really matters (to some zero-th order approximation).
hurrrr 6y ago
Human players tends to maintain high APM even in "idle" situation like the beginning of the match in which you don't have many things to do. They do it because it's easier for an human to have constant APM instead of spiking in critical situation like combats. I think that this pumps the average APM of a human player. Example of human player playing: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=bexWuHmV32A https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=bexWuHmV32A
ajuc 6y ago
The APM limit was averaged over longer periods of time. So AI "saved" the APM during boring parts of the game and then used it up all in a short bursts of over 1000 APM during crucial battles. It was especially visible during the blink-stalker Protoss vs Protoss against MaNa (very micro-intense matchup). Blink stalkers are very cost-effective units that are balanced by being very hard to micromanage perfectly. It's basically impossible over large area (during battles that take more than 1 screen) because it's pseudorandom which of your stalkers is targetted and needs to blink in any given moment, and you need to move the screen to that place to blink the stalker in time. AI knows health of all units without the need to move the screen to see it so it knows where to move the camera in advance. AI perfectly micromanaged full limit army of blink stalkers during a battle that was 3-screens big. No human could physically do it with the current starcraft UI. It's like chess pieces were 100 kg each and AI was steering an industrial robot :) Interesting, but it's mostly measuring stuff that's not about AI :) In the next game MaNa went into immortals (units that specifically exist to counter stalkers in pvp), and still lost, because AI blink stalker micro was just so impossibly good.
- YeGoblynQueenne 6y ago
  >> The APM limit was averaged over longer periods of time. So AI "saved" the APM during boring parts of the game and then used it up all in a short bursts of over 1000 APM during crucial battles. To be fair to AlphaStar, figuring out that it's a good idea to do this is not trivial. You could say it learned a kind of exploit (of the artificial restrictions placed on it).
  - ajuc 6y ago
    AIs tend to find exploits of the rules instead of actually doing what we want them to, it's pretty common.
    - loufe 6y ago
      I suppose that is a part of the human understanding of neural networks. When you take out the human perspective of humans, we do pretty much the same thing.
TulliusCicero 6y ago
It is true. I'm using APM as a shorthand, here, for mechanical aptitude. Yes, the APM, in terms of raw numbers, was constrained. But the computer used its APM in a completely different way, one which players could not possibly replicate. One obvious example: the AI doesn't use control groups. To anyone who's played Starcraft in a somewhat competitive fashion, that's a HUGE tell. Because the implication there, is that the AI doesn't need to make control groups, because it can just arbitrarily select whatever subset of units it wants to control, whenever it wants. Humans can't do that. IIRC, the AI also tended to 'burst' its APM in the middle of fights. That's the opposite as what happens with human players. Human players often have higher APM outside of fights, when they're doing repetitive, simplistic actions (e.g. Zerg players slamming the "make lings" or "make drones" hotkeys on all hatches simultaneously) and/or spamming to keep up a rhythm. When they go into a fight, where they don't want to waste time on spamming and where commands to improve their position are less obvious, they actually tend to slow down.

by loufe 6y ago

FeepingCreature 6y ago

The one thing I was really wishing they'd demonstrate but that I don't think they did was a functional understanding of hidden information, ie. natural scouting and positioning to catch hidden moving units that you've seen glimpses of. I didn't see anything of that in the games, the AI won afaict largely on a superior understanding of economy.

ajuc 6y ago
In the game after they introduced camera movement speed limits the AI lost pretty badly to warp prism harrasement. It reacted like a noob (moving the whole army back and forth instead of splitting it). That was a version that was trained for shorter time, though. I'd say AI won mostly because of better micro and less mistakes, but I haven't seen the most recent games, maybe that changed?

JRKrause 6y ago

This isn't true. Alphastar achieved super-human APM, in excess of 1500, in short bursts. Even if it's average APM was lower than a human this is still not a good comparison because it's value-per-click (e.g. not misclicking) is going to be extremely high. It's victories were largely due to superior micro control and a highly effective method of judging it's relative power in an engagement(i.e. when to push an engagement versus retreating). I think this says more about Starcraft II as a game than it does about the learning ability of DNNs. When you have perfect Stalker micro, nothing else in SC2 really matters (to some zero-th order approximation).

hurrrr 6y ago

Human players tends to maintain high APM even in "idle" situation like the beginning of the match in which you don't have many things to do. They do it because it's easier for an human to have constant APM instead of spiking in critical situation like combats. I think that this pumps the average APM of a human player. Example of human player playing: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=bexWuHmV32A https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=bexWuHmV32A

ajuc 6y ago

The APM limit was averaged over longer periods of time. So AI "saved" the APM during boring parts of the game and then used it up all in a short bursts of over 1000 APM during crucial battles. It was especially visible during the blink-stalker Protoss vs Protoss against MaNa (very micro-intense matchup). Blink stalkers are very cost-effective units that are balanced by being very hard to micromanage perfectly. It's basically impossible over large area (during battles that take more than 1 screen) because it's pseudorandom which of your stalkers is targetted and needs to blink in any given moment, and you need to move the screen to that place to blink the stalker in time. AI knows health of all units without the need to move the screen to see it so it knows where to move the camera in advance. AI perfectly micromanaged full limit army of blink stalkers during a battle that was 3-screens big. No human could physically do it with the current starcraft UI. It's like chess pieces were 100 kg each and AI was steering an industrial robot :) Interesting, but it's mostly measuring stuff that's not about AI :) In the next game MaNa went into immortals (units that specifically exist to counter stalkers in pvp), and still lost, because AI blink stalker micro was just so impossibly good.

YeGoblynQueenne 6y ago
>> The APM limit was averaged over longer periods of time. So AI "saved" the APM during boring parts of the game and then used it up all in a short bursts of over 1000 APM during crucial battles. To be fair to AlphaStar, figuring out that it's a good idea to do this is not trivial. You could say it learned a kind of exploit (of the artificial restrictions placed on it).
- ajuc 6y ago
  AIs tend to find exploits of the rules instead of actually doing what we want them to, it's pretty common.
  - loufe 6y ago
    I suppose that is a part of the human understanding of neural networks. When you take out the human perspective of humans, we do pretty much the same thing.

TulliusCicero 6y ago

It is true. I'm using APM as a shorthand, here, for mechanical aptitude. Yes, the APM, in terms of raw numbers, was constrained. But the computer used its APM in a completely different way, one which players could not possibly replicate. One obvious example: the AI doesn't use control groups. To anyone who's played Starcraft in a somewhat competitive fashion, that's a HUGE tell. Because the implication there, is that the AI doesn't need to make control groups, because it can just arbitrarily select whatever subset of units it wants to control, whenever it wants. Humans can't do that. IIRC, the AI also tended to 'burst' its APM in the middle of fights. That's the opposite as what happens with human players. Human players often have higher APM outside of fights, when they're doing repetitive, simplistic actions (e.g. Zerg players slamming the "make lings" or "make drones" hotkeys on all hatches simultaneously) and/or spamming to keep up a rhythm. When they go into a fight, where they don't want to waste time on spamming and where commands to improve their position are less obvious, they actually tend to slow down.