4 ms·

I's say work being part of people's identity is much older than Christianity.

krapp 6y ago
If we're talking about the Western world, and in particular, the politics and culture of class (of which "work being part of people's identity" is a part) then Judeo-Christian influence is the only influence that matters. And memes like the dignity of labor, the just world fallacy (that wealth and poverty have inherent moral dimensions) and welfare (or leftist/secular ideology) breeding laziness definitely have their basis in Christian influence. I've seen people quote the Bible directly ("If a man will not work, he shall not eat") when criticizing UBI. The just world fallacy in particular is going to hit people hard. People who believe society owes them safety, stability, a job and a living wage simply because they worked hard and obeyed the law are going to be hit with a rude awakening when they realize how capitalism actually works.
- throwaway092837 6y ago
  There is no "west" and there is no "Judeo-Christian" culture. There are, and has been, hundreds of different cultures. Some have similarities, some are profoundly different. (I'm not trying to dismiss your whole point: I agree with everything else you wrote)
  - krapp 6y ago
    >There are, and has been, hundreds of different cultures. Some have similarities, some are profoundly different. These cultures didn't emerge from a vacuum completely in isolation from one another. Their similarities and commonalities are what form the basis for these categories, broad though they may be.
- bildung 6y ago
  I'm agreeing with everything you wrote (with the minor differentiation that this is mostly rooted in particular protestant branches, not Christianity per se), but in my understanding the opposition to UBI is not primarily about dignity, but about identity, hence my comment. People were displayed as their being their job, not just generic underlings to the king, on egyptian stela from 3000 BC.
  - lotsofpulp 6y ago
    > but in my understanding the opposition to UBI is not primarily about dignity, Opposition to UBI (as well as healthcare for all, proper schooling for all, nutritional food for all, etc) is about not wanting to pay higher taxes and maintaining a competitive edge in being able to obtain resources over others in society (or the world). Those with more wealth (or who think they are capable of gaining more wealth) want to prevent others from having it, predictably.
    - bildung 6y ago
      There's a debate around UBI that goes beyond bumper-sticker wisdom, and that's what krapp and me were talking about.
    - jeffreyrogers 6y ago
      There are lots of reasons for not supporting those things. Some in-line with what you said. Others not. The issues are more complicated than you're making them out to be.
      - lotsofpulp 6y ago
        I used to think that, but over the years, in my cohort, the same group of people oppose any measures at wealth redistribution or anything that helps people who sell their labor. Removing tax advantages of healthcare from employers? Oppose. Removing exempt status or even raising the minimum salary under which an employer has to pay overtime? Oppose. Lowering the cost of education? Oppose. Parental or sick leave? Oppose. Outlawing non competes? Oppose. There's always some reason, which I believe to be a façade. The consistency and fervor with which they do not want labor to gain negotiating power is revealing. And, of course, always in support of tax cuts.
        ryandrake 6y ago
        It's the all-too-common "temporarily embarrassed millionaire" [1] mentality. When asked about these things, people imagine themselves as millionaires and then say "Well, if I were rich I wouldn't think those things were fair, so therefore I currently don't think they are fair either!" 1: https://en.wikiquote.org/wiki/John_Steinbeck https://en.wikiquote.org/wiki/John_Steinbeck

If we're talking about the Western world, and in particular, the politics and culture of class (of which "work being part of people's identity" is a part) then Judeo-Christian influence is the only influence that matters. And memes like the dignity of labor, the just world fallacy (that wealth and poverty have inherent moral dimensions) and welfare (or leftist/secular ideology) breeding laziness definitely have their basis in Christian influence. I've seen people quote the Bible directly ("If a man will not work, he shall not eat") when criticizing UBI. The just world fallacy in particular is going to hit people hard. People who believe society owes them safety, stability, a job and a living wage simply because they worked hard and obeyed the law are going to be hit with a rude awakening when they realize how capitalism actually works.

throwaway092837 6y ago
There is no "west" and there is no "Judeo-Christian" culture. There are, and has been, hundreds of different cultures. Some have similarities, some are profoundly different. (I'm not trying to dismiss your whole point: I agree with everything else you wrote)
- krapp 6y ago
  >There are, and has been, hundreds of different cultures. Some have similarities, some are profoundly different. These cultures didn't emerge from a vacuum completely in isolation from one another. Their similarities and commonalities are what form the basis for these categories, broad though they may be.
bildung 6y ago
I'm agreeing with everything you wrote (with the minor differentiation that this is mostly rooted in particular protestant branches, not Christianity per se), but in my understanding the opposition to UBI is not primarily about dignity, but about identity, hence my comment. People were displayed as their being their job, not just generic underlings to the king, on egyptian stela from 3000 BC.
- lotsofpulp 6y ago
  > but in my understanding the opposition to UBI is not primarily about dignity, Opposition to UBI (as well as healthcare for all, proper schooling for all, nutritional food for all, etc) is about not wanting to pay higher taxes and maintaining a competitive edge in being able to obtain resources over others in society (or the world). Those with more wealth (or who think they are capable of gaining more wealth) want to prevent others from having it, predictably.
  - bildung 6y ago
    There's a debate around UBI that goes beyond bumper-sticker wisdom, and that's what krapp and me were talking about.
  - jeffreyrogers 6y ago
    There are lots of reasons for not supporting those things. Some in-line with what you said. Others not. The issues are more complicated than you're making them out to be.
    - lotsofpulp 6y ago
      I used to think that, but over the years, in my cohort, the same group of people oppose any measures at wealth redistribution or anything that helps people who sell their labor. Removing tax advantages of healthcare from employers? Oppose. Removing exempt status or even raising the minimum salary under which an employer has to pay overtime? Oppose. Lowering the cost of education? Oppose. Parental or sick leave? Oppose. Outlawing non competes? Oppose. There's always some reason, which I believe to be a façade. The consistency and fervor with which they do not want labor to gain negotiating power is revealing. And, of course, always in support of tax cuts.
      - ryandrake 6y ago
        It's the all-too-common "temporarily embarrassed millionaire" [1] mentality. When asked about these things, people imagine themselves as millionaires and then say "Well, if I were rich I wouldn't think those things were fair, so therefore I currently don't think they are fair either!" 1: https://en.wikiquote.org/wiki/John_Steinbeck https://en.wikiquote.org/wiki/John_Steinbeck