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Just found this ... https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Hoatzin https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Hoatzin > notable for having chicks that have claws on two of their wi

Just found this ... https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Hoatzin https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Hoatzin > notable for having chicks that have claws on two of their wing digits. > In 2015, genetic research[5] indicated that the hoatzin is the last surviving member of a bird line that branched off in its own direction 64 million years ago, shortly after the extinction event that killed the non-avian dinosaurs.[6]

Scarblac 6y ago
Given how much that looks like a bird, that strongly suggests we would also recognize avian dinosaurs as birds, right?
- TomMarius 6y ago
  It hasn't remained the same for all that time.
  - hansbo 6y ago
    For any feature this bird and other birds have in common to have come later, they would have to have evolved twice. This could be the case for some features, but is highly unlikely to be responsible for large part of the similarities.
- gpderetta 6y ago
  My understanding is that non avian dinosaurs are the birds.
  - IncRnd 6y ago
    You may accidentally have an extra word in, "My understanding is that __non__ avian dinosaurs are the birds." avian = related to birds
    - gpderetta 6y ago
      Doh! Yes the _non_ is extra.
tomato2juice 6y ago
> genetic research How did they get the genetic code of the specific dinosaur branch? I recall a previous discussion here that we have very little genetic source code from dinosaurs because it's degraded in the fossils over time
- loudmax 6y ago
  Any genetic code analysis is going to be from creatures that are alive today, or at most were alive a few thousand years ago. When you're looking at the fossil record, you're basing families of species on the age of the fossils and on morphology -- the shape of bones and teeth, etc. Aside from birds, the closest living relatives of dinosaurs are crocodilians. Any DNA that birds and crocodiles have in common almost was certainly shared with dinosaurs. Scientists use this genetic bracketing to get a sense of what the DNA of ancient species might have looked like. In the long run mutations occur at a fairly predictable rate, so geneticists can use statistical analysis to estimate how long ago two different species or families of species may have diverged. Since the Hoatzin is a living species, geneticists can compare its DNA to the DNA of other living birds. Based on this, they can estimate how long ago Hoatzins diverged from other living birds, and they can then go to paleontologists to compare their estimate against the fossil record. Any DNA that Hoatzins share with crocodiles, but not with other living birds may indicate DNA that birds evolved after their divergence from other dinosaurs, so this offers a glimpse into what dinosaur DNA looked like.

Scarblac 6y ago

Given how much that looks like a bird, that strongly suggests we would also recognize avian dinosaurs as birds, right?

TomMarius 6y ago
It hasn't remained the same for all that time.
- hansbo 6y ago
  For any feature this bird and other birds have in common to have come later, they would have to have evolved twice. This could be the case for some features, but is highly unlikely to be responsible for large part of the similarities.
gpderetta 6y ago
My understanding is that non avian dinosaurs are the birds.
- IncRnd 6y ago
  You may accidentally have an extra word in, "My understanding is that __non__ avian dinosaurs are the birds." avian = related to birds
  - gpderetta 6y ago
    Doh! Yes the _non_ is extra.

tomato2juice 6y ago

> genetic research How did they get the genetic code of the specific dinosaur branch? I recall a previous discussion here that we have very little genetic source code from dinosaurs because it's degraded in the fossils over time

loudmax 6y ago
Any genetic code analysis is going to be from creatures that are alive today, or at most were alive a few thousand years ago. When you're looking at the fossil record, you're basing families of species on the age of the fossils and on morphology -- the shape of bones and teeth, etc. Aside from birds, the closest living relatives of dinosaurs are crocodilians. Any DNA that birds and crocodiles have in common almost was certainly shared with dinosaurs. Scientists use this genetic bracketing to get a sense of what the DNA of ancient species might have looked like. In the long run mutations occur at a fairly predictable rate, so geneticists can use statistical analysis to estimate how long ago two different species or families of species may have diverged. Since the Hoatzin is a living species, geneticists can compare its DNA to the DNA of other living birds. Based on this, they can estimate how long ago Hoatzins diverged from other living birds, and they can then go to paleontologists to compare their estimate against the fossil record. Any DNA that Hoatzins share with crocodiles, but not with other living birds may indicate DNA that birds evolved after their divergence from other dinosaurs, so this offers a glimpse into what dinosaur DNA looked like.