5 ms·

> The revolution won't be the automation. It'll be in us accepting that the job wasn't who we were/are and it's okay to let it go This is perhaps the only thin

by Swizec 6y ago

> The revolution won't be the automation. It'll be in us accepting that the job wasn't who we were/are and it's okay to let it go This is perhaps the only thing socialism got right. At least the flavor we had in Yugoslavia and the remnants it left on the psyche of my parent's generation. You do your job, then you go home and live your actual life. The job exists as a way to "pay your dues" in society, but it isn't your life. Your life is home, family, the house you're building, maybe a little side business. That sort of thing. My generation growing up in the 90's and 00's tossed that away and went full american. Hustle hustle. Doing your job is not enough. You must love your job or you are a failure. We have more prosperity and I sometimes wonder if our parents didn't have more life.

toomuchtodo 6y ago
> We have more prosperity and I sometimes wonder if our parents didn't have more life. When I was younger and naive, I judged the Amish. As I've grown older and wiser, I realize they had the right idea all along. Family, loved ones, community first. Everything else serves those.
- dragontamer 6y ago
  The Amish are actually some of the most successful businessmen. So... its probably not all just "friends and family values" in the Amish world. Despite a luddite-based culture and "technically" an 8th grade education, they're probably one of the hardest working people around. https://www.washingtonpost.com/news/acts-of-faith/wp/2016/06/21/we-left-upper-class-suburbia-to-become-amish-and-learned-you-can-be-both-socialist-and-capitalist/ https://www.washingtonpost.com/news/acts-of-faith/wp/2016/06... -------- They just figured out where to focus their business chops. Organic foods, hand-crafted customized furniture, etc. etc. And the Amish have a huge reputation as among the best craftsmen and freshest foods for these sorts of things. Their sense of community probably also helps keep the various Amish businesses alive since they help each other so much.
  - ponker 6y ago
    The Amish have built a prosperous life for themselves selling their brand of "quaintness" to Goldman Sachs traders buying curio cabinets and porch swings for their place in Sag Harbor.
    - slavik81 6y ago
      My impression is that their brand is more about quality. I can't imagine the Amish "cost-optimizing" like big manufacturers do. So much stuff is a nice veneer with shoddy bones.
- Nextgrid 6y ago
  Regarding the Amish, I admire their approach to technology. Technology is only accepted if it benefits them without distracting them from their main duties (family & church). This inherently makes them immune to the majority of the downsides we see in today's tech such as addictive patterns, advertising or "broken by design" tools as they would just not become accepted in the community to begin with. Given the current, often user-hostile state of technology I think this is an example we should at least consider.
  - ikeyany 6y ago
    Define "technology". Anything invented after the year 1800? 1900? 1980?
agumonkey 6y ago
Super interesting. I believe we have a kind of reflex to also find part of 'us' in our role in society. And that it's not just an american culture bug. Striking a balance between the two is subtle I suppose.
raducu 6y ago
"Money doesn't buy happiness" is just something we tell the poor so they don't revolt -- this also applied to communism -- the communist elites lived a much better life materially and socially. Sure, average Ivan was "happy" because his neighbors had just as crappy flat, just as crappy car, just as crappy job, just as crappy food and so on and there was no way for him to "better" his life because money was meaningless because thats not what Ivan really lacked -- he lacked freedom to do as he pleased with his money. My point was that people are competitive, social animals and social status is very important; sure, communism castrated a lot of those impulses and some people claim they were much happier back then, but its mostly bullshit nostalgia. I was very young back then, but I remember the deprivations, my kindergarten educator slapping me for not applauding "dear leader", my parents just leaving me alone in the flat because they had to go the communist parades, being lectured in kindergarden how my parents jobs(doctors) were in fact less important than the jobs of other coleagues worker-parents jobs who "perhaps" made the syringes my parents could not do without; I remember people having to work on saturdays, night shifts and so on.
- taneq 6y ago
  Money may not buy happiness but poverty sure can remove it.
  - visarga 6y ago
    In Romanian we say 'Money don't bring happiness but neither does their lack of'
- missedthecue 6y ago
  Money doesn't buy happiness. All it can do is buy distraction and remove physical discomfort like starving or sleeping in the rain or riding a bike instead of a car
- cameldrv 6y ago
  Having not lived through it, but having seen a glimpse of its aftermath living in Berlin a few years, it was very interesting to see the contrasts between the Ossis and Wessis (at least ones that were say, at least 18 in 1989). In general, I found the Ossis to be more friendly and open and fun loving. For example, an Ossi party would usually be louder, messier, and have worse food, but everyone would be laughing and a guitar might come out at some point. The typical Wessi party I experienced was perfectly catered, everyone was perfectly dressed, and it was in a perfect house, but people weren't necessarily having that much fun. Now this is different in other parts of Germany, but it's an interesting natural experiment, because these guys were literally in the same city.
averros 6y ago
What you DON'T understand about work/life balance in socialism is the pervasive undercurrent of fear: work in socialist countries was legally required (and, yes, people went to jail for failing to have full-time job, and there even was a special word for people like that: тунеядец). Your parents did a good job shielding you from that fear. And, no, they didn't have "more life", as life in constant fear couldn't be considered as anything better. (Disclaimer: I'm old enough to remember living in a socialist country as an adult.)
Jach 6y ago
The error is universalism. Neither mindset you're describing is appropriate to be given a universal "should" status, people have differing preferences. Some rather enjoy having their work be a big part if not the primary part of their life. Plus there are many nice things which benefit everyone that wouldn't exist if the people who brought them about had just treated their jobs as jobs. Maybe some think those things shouldn't exist, but you'll never convince the creators of that. Where America still shines is you can for the most part still go with either mindset as you prefer. Even in SV tech where there's so much "dream job" this and other such talk, BigCos are nevertheless packed full of employees for whom it's just a job. But there are the occasional rather devoted employees who put in much more than 40 hours (not to mention the fudgey to account for time where you're thinking about work topics in the shower, at dinner, before bed...) and that's fine, it can make a nice mix. Now if you start down the socialist path of promoting a universal policy, and there are many (like limiting work hours) that could support making things easier for the just-a-job mentality, what you're actually doing is eliminating an option people prefer, and a huge source of innovation along with it.
ashtonkem 6y ago
In modern America we used to have that, but non-job social structures have been hollowed out since the 1970s. Now Americans get a distressingly large percentage of their social interactions via work, making them psychologically dependent on their job too.
- marcus_holmes 6y ago
  Well as I unerstand it, the average American salaried worker spends 10-12 hours a day, at least 5 days a week, at the office. With maybe 10 days holiday a year. How does anyone have time to have an actual life outside work?
  - panzagl 6y ago
    We goof off at work.
  - deleted 6y ago
    [deleted]

by Swizec 6y ago

toomuchtodo 6y ago

> We have more prosperity and I sometimes wonder if our parents didn't have more life. When I was younger and naive, I judged the Amish. As I've grown older and wiser, I realize they had the right idea all along. Family, loved ones, community first. Everything else serves those.

dragontamer 6y ago
The Amish are actually some of the most successful businessmen. So... its probably not all just "friends and family values" in the Amish world. Despite a luddite-based culture and "technically" an 8th grade education, they're probably one of the hardest working people around. https://www.washingtonpost.com/news/acts-of-faith/wp/2016/06/21/we-left-upper-class-suburbia-to-become-amish-and-learned-you-can-be-both-socialist-and-capitalist/ https://www.washingtonpost.com/news/acts-of-faith/wp/2016/06... -------- They just figured out where to focus their business chops. Organic foods, hand-crafted customized furniture, etc. etc. And the Amish have a huge reputation as among the best craftsmen and freshest foods for these sorts of things. Their sense of community probably also helps keep the various Amish businesses alive since they help each other so much.
- ponker 6y ago
  The Amish have built a prosperous life for themselves selling their brand of "quaintness" to Goldman Sachs traders buying curio cabinets and porch swings for their place in Sag Harbor.
  - slavik81 6y ago
    My impression is that their brand is more about quality. I can't imagine the Amish "cost-optimizing" like big manufacturers do. So much stuff is a nice veneer with shoddy bones.
Nextgrid 6y ago
Regarding the Amish, I admire their approach to technology. Technology is only accepted if it benefits them without distracting them from their main duties (family & church). This inherently makes them immune to the majority of the downsides we see in today's tech such as addictive patterns, advertising or "broken by design" tools as they would just not become accepted in the community to begin with. Given the current, often user-hostile state of technology I think this is an example we should at least consider.
- ikeyany 6y ago
  Define "technology". Anything invented after the year 1800? 1900? 1980?

agumonkey 6y ago

Super interesting. I believe we have a kind of reflex to also find part of 'us' in our role in society. And that it's not just an american culture bug. Striking a balance between the two is subtle I suppose.

raducu 6y ago

"Money doesn't buy happiness" is just something we tell the poor so they don't revolt -- this also applied to communism -- the communist elites lived a much better life materially and socially. Sure, average Ivan was "happy" because his neighbors had just as crappy flat, just as crappy car, just as crappy job, just as crappy food and so on and there was no way for him to "better" his life because money was meaningless because thats not what Ivan really lacked -- he lacked freedom to do as he pleased with his money. My point was that people are competitive, social animals and social status is very important; sure, communism castrated a lot of those impulses and some people claim they were much happier back then, but its mostly bullshit nostalgia. I was very young back then, but I remember the deprivations, my kindergarten educator slapping me for not applauding "dear leader", my parents just leaving me alone in the flat because they had to go the communist parades, being lectured in kindergarden how my parents jobs(doctors) were in fact less important than the jobs of other coleagues worker-parents jobs who "perhaps" made the syringes my parents could not do without; I remember people having to work on saturdays, night shifts and so on.

taneq 6y ago
Money may not buy happiness but poverty sure can remove it.
- visarga 6y ago
  In Romanian we say 'Money don't bring happiness but neither does their lack of'
missedthecue 6y ago
Money doesn't buy happiness. All it can do is buy distraction and remove physical discomfort like starving or sleeping in the rain or riding a bike instead of a car
cameldrv 6y ago
Having not lived through it, but having seen a glimpse of its aftermath living in Berlin a few years, it was very interesting to see the contrasts between the Ossis and Wessis (at least ones that were say, at least 18 in 1989). In general, I found the Ossis to be more friendly and open and fun loving. For example, an Ossi party would usually be louder, messier, and have worse food, but everyone would be laughing and a guitar might come out at some point. The typical Wessi party I experienced was perfectly catered, everyone was perfectly dressed, and it was in a perfect house, but people weren't necessarily having that much fun. Now this is different in other parts of Germany, but it's an interesting natural experiment, because these guys were literally in the same city.

averros 6y ago

What you DON'T understand about work/life balance in socialism is the pervasive undercurrent of fear: work in socialist countries was legally required (and, yes, people went to jail for failing to have full-time job, and there even was a special word for people like that: тунеядец). Your parents did a good job shielding you from that fear. And, no, they didn't have "more life", as life in constant fear couldn't be considered as anything better. (Disclaimer: I'm old enough to remember living in a socialist country as an adult.)

Jach 6y ago

The error is universalism. Neither mindset you're describing is appropriate to be given a universal "should" status, people have differing preferences. Some rather enjoy having their work be a big part if not the primary part of their life. Plus there are many nice things which benefit everyone that wouldn't exist if the people who brought them about had just treated their jobs as jobs. Maybe some think those things shouldn't exist, but you'll never convince the creators of that. Where America still shines is you can for the most part still go with either mindset as you prefer. Even in SV tech where there's so much "dream job" this and other such talk, BigCos are nevertheless packed full of employees for whom it's just a job. But there are the occasional rather devoted employees who put in much more than 40 hours (not to mention the fudgey to account for time where you're thinking about work topics in the shower, at dinner, before bed...) and that's fine, it can make a nice mix. Now if you start down the socialist path of promoting a universal policy, and there are many (like limiting work hours) that could support making things easier for the just-a-job mentality, what you're actually doing is eliminating an option people prefer, and a huge source of innovation along with it.

ashtonkem 6y ago

In modern America we used to have that, but non-job social structures have been hollowed out since the 1970s. Now Americans get a distressingly large percentage of their social interactions via work, making them psychologically dependent on their job too.

marcus_holmes 6y ago
Well as I unerstand it, the average American salaried worker spends 10-12 hours a day, at least 5 days a week, at the office. With maybe 10 days holiday a year. How does anyone have time to have an actual life outside work?
- panzagl 6y ago
  We goof off at work.
- deleted 6y ago
  [deleted]