8 ms·

The horrors of the automation revolution have been on our collective mind for a long time. In the '70s this was one of my dad's favorite jokes: "It's terrible,

The horrors of the automation revolution have been on our collective mind for a long time. In the '70s this was one of my dad's favorite jokes: "It's terrible, my father lost the job he had for decades. He was replaced by a clever mechanical gizmo just six inches long. And then my mom got one." It plays on the fear of being emasculated by technology. Maybe that leads us to exaggerate the threat.

toomuchtodo 6y ago
The fear is very real, not about emasculation, but a loss of identity in a society where "you are your job". I have seen this first hand in both people who weren't "essential" during COVID shutdowns (to their horror), and people who were deemed "essential" but it was, in their words, "bullshit". Automation is rapidly accelerating into the wall that is identity beliefs at scale, and there is evidence that these belief systems are fairly rigid, making adaption to change challenging to say the least. The revolution won't be the automation. It'll be in us accepting that the job wasn't who we were/are and it's okay to let it go (caveat systems are in place to ensure quality of life is provided for at an agreed upon floor). It's just a job.
- Swizec 6y ago
  > The revolution won't be the automation. It'll be in us accepting that the job wasn't who we were/are and it's okay to let it go This is perhaps the only thing socialism got right. At least the flavor we had in Yugoslavia and the remnants it left on the psyche of my parent's generation. You do your job, then you go home and live your actual life. The job exists as a way to "pay your dues" in society, but it isn't your life. Your life is home, family, the house you're building, maybe a little side business. That sort of thing. My generation growing up in the 90's and 00's tossed that away and went full american. Hustle hustle. Doing your job is not enough. You must love your job or you are a failure. We have more prosperity and I sometimes wonder if our parents didn't have more life.
  - toomuchtodo 6y ago
    > We have more prosperity and I sometimes wonder if our parents didn't have more life. When I was younger and naive, I judged the Amish. As I've grown older and wiser, I realize they had the right idea all along. Family, loved ones, community first. Everything else serves those.
    - dragontamer 6y ago
      The Amish are actually some of the most successful businessmen. So... its probably not all just "friends and family values" in the Amish world. Despite a luddite-based culture and "technically" an 8th grade education, they're probably one of the hardest working people around. https://www.washingtonpost.com/news/acts-of-faith/wp/2016/06/21/we-left-upper-class-suburbia-to-become-amish-and-learned-you-can-be-both-socialist-and-capitalist/ https://www.washingtonpost.com/news/acts-of-faith/wp/2016/06... -------- They just figured out where to focus their business chops. Organic foods, hand-crafted customized furniture, etc. etc. And the Amish have a huge reputation as among the best craftsmen and freshest foods for these sorts of things. Their sense of community probably also helps keep the various Amish businesses alive since they help each other so much.
      - ponker 6y ago
        The Amish have built a prosperous life for themselves selling their brand of "quaintness" to Goldman Sachs traders buying curio cabinets and porch swings for their place in Sag Harbor.
        slavik81 6y ago
        My impression is that their brand is more about quality. I can't imagine the Amish "cost-optimizing" like big manufacturers do. So much stuff is a nice veneer with shoddy bones.
    - Nextgrid 6y ago
      Regarding the Amish, I admire their approach to technology. Technology is only accepted if it benefits them without distracting them from their main duties (family & church). This inherently makes them immune to the majority of the downsides we see in today's tech such as addictive patterns, advertising or "broken by design" tools as they would just not become accepted in the community to begin with. Given the current, often user-hostile state of technology I think this is an example we should at least consider.
- nine_k 6y ago
  "You are not your job" is one thing I keep teaching all my junior colleagues. Your work is not your identity, and should not be seriously attached to your ego. This helps very much at code review and performance review times.
  - DangitBobby 6y ago
    I spend more time doing my job than almost anything else. Sleeping is the only thing I spend more time doing. It might be healthier if I can avoid attaching so much importance and part of my identity to it, but I don't know how that's possible for me. Not only does it dominate my time, but it determines how much money I have for what I need and want and therefor what class of society I fit into and how difficult my life is/can be as a result. Really I see it more of an act of Zen doublethink to believe that your work should not comprise any part of your identity given how central it is to your experience as a human.
    - eeZah7Ux 6y ago
      > Zen doublethink facepalm
      - DangitBobby 6y ago
        Doublethink being the act of simultaneously knowing something to be false while believing it to be true, and "Zen" here being a state of inner piece. So "Zen doublethink" would be choosing to believe something that you know isn't true for the sake of inner peace.
        throwaway38235 6y ago
        Giving the philosophical roots of Zen, this is like writing "peaceful war"
    - HeyLaughingBoy 6y ago
      I find this really interesting because it's the exact opposite of how I think. I simply can't wrap my head around the concept, even knowing that many people think the same way. Twenty years ago I had a friend who was a social worker and I offhand mentioned to her that "well, I'm not my job." She stared at me as if I had two heads and then said, slowly, "I completely agree with you, but you have no idea how rare it is to hear a man say that." I enjoy my job and I'm happy to do it, but it in no way defines who I am for more than the 8-or-so hours per day I spend at it. The thing is, making your work your identity is almost central to the American male experience, and I doubt that's going away any time soon. I guess you're in good company :-)
- totetsu 6y ago
  Doesn't the often given argument agains UBI that, 'work is important for dignity' have its roots in Christian ethics?
  - bildung 6y ago
    I's say work being part of people's identity is much older than Christianity.
    - krapp 6y ago
      If we're talking about the Western world, and in particular, the politics and culture of class (of which "work being part of people's identity" is a part) then Judeo-Christian influence is the only influence that matters. And memes like the dignity of labor, the just world fallacy (that wealth and poverty have inherent moral dimensions) and welfare (or leftist/secular ideology) breeding laziness definitely have their basis in Christian influence. I've seen people quote the Bible directly ("If a man will not work, he shall not eat") when criticizing UBI. The just world fallacy in particular is going to hit people hard. People who believe society owes them safety, stability, a job and a living wage simply because they worked hard and obeyed the law are going to be hit with a rude awakening when they realize how capitalism actually works.
      - throwaway092837 6y ago
        There is no "west" and there is no "Judeo-Christian" culture. There are, and has been, hundreds of different cultures. Some have similarities, some are profoundly different. (I'm not trying to dismiss your whole point: I agree with everything else you wrote)
        krapp 6y ago
        >There are, and has been, hundreds of different cultures. Some have similarities, some are profoundly different. These cultures didn't emerge from a vacuum completely in isolation from one another. Their similarities and commonalities are what form the basis for these categories, broad though they may be.
- Cthulhu_ 6y ago
  While correlating your identity with your job is probably not a good thing in a general sense of the word, I think looking a bit broader, having purpose in life is important; for a lot of people, that is their job / career. In addition to automation, I fear there are a lot of bullshit jobs out there right now that people cannot see as their purpose; it's a job, they take it because they need to make money, and because there isn't a living to be made in what they themselves are passionate about. There's a LOT of people who would love to make a living in the arts - writing, drawing, etc - but there's just not enough money in it because people aren't willing to actually pay for it, so they have to move their passion to a hobby while working a dead-end job where they are just a number in a payroll system - i.e. they are replaceable. McJobs, if you want.
  - 6510 6y ago
    My budget is tuned to buy mass produced products. I cant afford art. "Willing to pay" is putting it overly general.
- eeZah7Ux 6y ago
  > loss of identity in a society where "you are your job" In a society where "you are your job" you already have huge problems even if there is full employment.
agumonkey 6y ago
That's shallow (funny, but shallow). It's about stability. You carved a nice spot where you found joy and financial ... well .. stability. And now your life might go to the toilet. There's no guarantee that your next job will be 1. Fulfilling in itself 2. Provide the same income 3. Provide the same secondary benefits (colleagues, hours, boss, etc) And.. automation is not even a guarantee that what your were producing is gonna improve (lots of chances it may but it can go the other way too: cheap commoditization)
- lotsofpulp 6y ago
  Yes, all the unemployment/stock market value/income statistics all leave out the most important metric - the feeling of security, or insecurity I should say. Volatility is high, people can see it and feel it, and it shapes their decisions.
  - agumonkey 6y ago
    Volatility also open roads to predatory management. Last year I felt how job blackmail felt. It's near invisible, no one has to say a word. Your boss can just bully you and if you happen to like and need that job, you have to decide to harm your own daily life or suffer his ways.
- d3nj4l 6y ago
  > There's no guarantee that your next job will be > 1. Fulfilling in itself > 2. Provide the same income >3. Provide the same secondary benefits (colleagues, hours, boss, etc) Given how the job market is trending in favour of uber/postmates-style gig work (for people who aren't working in specific skilled trades) , I'd say it is guaranteed to be worse in all three aspects.
Barrin92 6y ago
Ted Chiang made a similar point a few years back. (well not that phallic, but also about psychological projection as a reason for the AI fear) "This summer, Elon Musk spoke to the National Governors Association and told them that “AI is a fundamental risk to the existence of human civilization.” Doomsayers have been issuing similar warnings for some time, but never before have they commanded so much visibility.[...]AI redesigns itself to be more effective, it might decide that the best way to maximize its output would be to destroy civilization and convert the entire surface of the Earth into strawberry fields"[...] "This scenario sounds absurd to most people, yet there are a surprising number of technologists who think it illustrates a real danger. Why? Perhaps it’s because they’re already accustomed to entities that operate this way: Silicon Valley tech companies."[...] "The idea of superintelligence is such a poorly defined notion that one could envision it taking almost any form with equal justification: a benevolent genie that solves all the world’s problems, or a mathematician that spends all its time proving theorems so abstract that humans can’t even understand them. But when Silicon Valley tries to imagine superintelligence, what it comes up with is no-holds-barred capitalism." https://www.buzzfeednews.com/article/tedchiang/the-real-danger-to-civilization-isnt-ai-its-runaway https://www.buzzfeednews.com/article/tedchiang/the-real-dang...
- ponker 6y ago
  I don't think that no-holds-barred capitalism is the likeliest outcome for a superintelligent AI, but it is the one we need to be the most vigilant of. The abstract mathematician AI could just be allowed to live out its peaceful life proving ever-more-obscure theorems.
  - majewsky 6y ago
    The mathematician AI may just as well decide to use the entire planet as fuel for its compute capacity.
- visarga 6y ago
  It is rather automation and not AI itself that will bring changes to the job market. And the article argues automation hasn't had the expected effect yet.

toomuchtodo 6y ago

The fear is very real, not about emasculation, but a loss of identity in a society where "you are your job". I have seen this first hand in both people who weren't "essential" during COVID shutdowns (to their horror), and people who were deemed "essential" but it was, in their words, "bullshit". Automation is rapidly accelerating into the wall that is identity beliefs at scale, and there is evidence that these belief systems are fairly rigid, making adaption to change challenging to say the least. The revolution won't be the automation. It'll be in us accepting that the job wasn't who we were/are and it's okay to let it go (caveat systems are in place to ensure quality of life is provided for at an agreed upon floor). It's just a job.

Swizec 6y ago
> The revolution won't be the automation. It'll be in us accepting that the job wasn't who we were/are and it's okay to let it go This is perhaps the only thing socialism got right. At least the flavor we had in Yugoslavia and the remnants it left on the psyche of my parent's generation. You do your job, then you go home and live your actual life. The job exists as a way to "pay your dues" in society, but it isn't your life. Your life is home, family, the house you're building, maybe a little side business. That sort of thing. My generation growing up in the 90's and 00's tossed that away and went full american. Hustle hustle. Doing your job is not enough. You must love your job or you are a failure. We have more prosperity and I sometimes wonder if our parents didn't have more life.
- toomuchtodo 6y ago
  > We have more prosperity and I sometimes wonder if our parents didn't have more life. When I was younger and naive, I judged the Amish. As I've grown older and wiser, I realize they had the right idea all along. Family, loved ones, community first. Everything else serves those.
  - dragontamer 6y ago
    The Amish are actually some of the most successful businessmen. So... its probably not all just "friends and family values" in the Amish world. Despite a luddite-based culture and "technically" an 8th grade education, they're probably one of the hardest working people around. https://www.washingtonpost.com/news/acts-of-faith/wp/2016/06/21/we-left-upper-class-suburbia-to-become-amish-and-learned-you-can-be-both-socialist-and-capitalist/ https://www.washingtonpost.com/news/acts-of-faith/wp/2016/06... -------- They just figured out where to focus their business chops. Organic foods, hand-crafted customized furniture, etc. etc. And the Amish have a huge reputation as among the best craftsmen and freshest foods for these sorts of things. Their sense of community probably also helps keep the various Amish businesses alive since they help each other so much.
    - ponker 6y ago
      The Amish have built a prosperous life for themselves selling their brand of "quaintness" to Goldman Sachs traders buying curio cabinets and porch swings for their place in Sag Harbor.
      - slavik81 6y ago
        My impression is that their brand is more about quality. I can't imagine the Amish "cost-optimizing" like big manufacturers do. So much stuff is a nice veneer with shoddy bones.
  - Nextgrid 6y ago
    Regarding the Amish, I admire their approach to technology. Technology is only accepted if it benefits them without distracting them from their main duties (family & church). This inherently makes them immune to the majority of the downsides we see in today's tech such as addictive patterns, advertising or "broken by design" tools as they would just not become accepted in the community to begin with. Given the current, often user-hostile state of technology I think this is an example we should at least consider.
nine_k 6y ago
"You are not your job" is one thing I keep teaching all my junior colleagues. Your work is not your identity, and should not be seriously attached to your ego. This helps very much at code review and performance review times.
- DangitBobby 6y ago
  I spend more time doing my job than almost anything else. Sleeping is the only thing I spend more time doing. It might be healthier if I can avoid attaching so much importance and part of my identity to it, but I don't know how that's possible for me. Not only does it dominate my time, but it determines how much money I have for what I need and want and therefor what class of society I fit into and how difficult my life is/can be as a result. Really I see it more of an act of Zen doublethink to believe that your work should not comprise any part of your identity given how central it is to your experience as a human.
  - eeZah7Ux 6y ago
    > Zen doublethink facepalm
    - DangitBobby 6y ago
      Doublethink being the act of simultaneously knowing something to be false while believing it to be true, and "Zen" here being a state of inner piece. So "Zen doublethink" would be choosing to believe something that you know isn't true for the sake of inner peace.
      - throwaway38235 6y ago
        Giving the philosophical roots of Zen, this is like writing "peaceful war"
  - HeyLaughingBoy 6y ago
    I find this really interesting because it's the exact opposite of how I think. I simply can't wrap my head around the concept, even knowing that many people think the same way. Twenty years ago I had a friend who was a social worker and I offhand mentioned to her that "well, I'm not my job." She stared at me as if I had two heads and then said, slowly, "I completely agree with you, but you have no idea how rare it is to hear a man say that." I enjoy my job and I'm happy to do it, but it in no way defines who I am for more than the 8-or-so hours per day I spend at it. The thing is, making your work your identity is almost central to the American male experience, and I doubt that's going away any time soon. I guess you're in good company :-)
totetsu 6y ago
Doesn't the often given argument agains UBI that, 'work is important for dignity' have its roots in Christian ethics?
- bildung 6y ago
  I's say work being part of people's identity is much older than Christianity.
  - krapp 6y ago
    If we're talking about the Western world, and in particular, the politics and culture of class (of which "work being part of people's identity" is a part) then Judeo-Christian influence is the only influence that matters. And memes like the dignity of labor, the just world fallacy (that wealth and poverty have inherent moral dimensions) and welfare (or leftist/secular ideology) breeding laziness definitely have their basis in Christian influence. I've seen people quote the Bible directly ("If a man will not work, he shall not eat") when criticizing UBI. The just world fallacy in particular is going to hit people hard. People who believe society owes them safety, stability, a job and a living wage simply because they worked hard and obeyed the law are going to be hit with a rude awakening when they realize how capitalism actually works.
    - throwaway092837 6y ago
      There is no "west" and there is no "Judeo-Christian" culture. There are, and has been, hundreds of different cultures. Some have similarities, some are profoundly different. (I'm not trying to dismiss your whole point: I agree with everything else you wrote)
      - krapp 6y ago
        >There are, and has been, hundreds of different cultures. Some have similarities, some are profoundly different. These cultures didn't emerge from a vacuum completely in isolation from one another. Their similarities and commonalities are what form the basis for these categories, broad though they may be.
Cthulhu_ 6y ago
While correlating your identity with your job is probably not a good thing in a general sense of the word, I think looking a bit broader, having purpose in life is important; for a lot of people, that is their job / career. In addition to automation, I fear there are a lot of bullshit jobs out there right now that people cannot see as their purpose; it's a job, they take it because they need to make money, and because there isn't a living to be made in what they themselves are passionate about. There's a LOT of people who would love to make a living in the arts - writing, drawing, etc - but there's just not enough money in it because people aren't willing to actually pay for it, so they have to move their passion to a hobby while working a dead-end job where they are just a number in a payroll system - i.e. they are replaceable. McJobs, if you want.
- 6510 6y ago
  My budget is tuned to buy mass produced products. I cant afford art. "Willing to pay" is putting it overly general.
eeZah7Ux 6y ago
> loss of identity in a society where "you are your job" In a society where "you are your job" you already have huge problems even if there is full employment.

agumonkey 6y ago

That's shallow (funny, but shallow). It's about stability. You carved a nice spot where you found joy and financial ... well .. stability. And now your life might go to the toilet. There's no guarantee that your next job will be 1. Fulfilling in itself 2. Provide the same income 3. Provide the same secondary benefits (colleagues, hours, boss, etc) And.. automation is not even a guarantee that what your were producing is gonna improve (lots of chances it may but it can go the other way too: cheap commoditization)

lotsofpulp 6y ago
Yes, all the unemployment/stock market value/income statistics all leave out the most important metric - the feeling of security, or insecurity I should say. Volatility is high, people can see it and feel it, and it shapes their decisions.
- agumonkey 6y ago
  Volatility also open roads to predatory management. Last year I felt how job blackmail felt. It's near invisible, no one has to say a word. Your boss can just bully you and if you happen to like and need that job, you have to decide to harm your own daily life or suffer his ways.
d3nj4l 6y ago
> There's no guarantee that your next job will be > 1. Fulfilling in itself > 2. Provide the same income >3. Provide the same secondary benefits (colleagues, hours, boss, etc) Given how the job market is trending in favour of uber/postmates-style gig work (for people who aren't working in specific skilled trades) , I'd say it is guaranteed to be worse in all three aspects.

Barrin92 6y ago

Ted Chiang made a similar point a few years back. (well not that phallic, but also about psychological projection as a reason for the AI fear) "This summer, Elon Musk spoke to the National Governors Association and told them that “AI is a fundamental risk to the existence of human civilization.” Doomsayers have been issuing similar warnings for some time, but never before have they commanded so much visibility.[...]AI redesigns itself to be more effective, it might decide that the best way to maximize its output would be to destroy civilization and convert the entire surface of the Earth into strawberry fields"[...] "This scenario sounds absurd to most people, yet there are a surprising number of technologists who think it illustrates a real danger. Why? Perhaps it’s because they’re already accustomed to entities that operate this way: Silicon Valley tech companies."[...] "The idea of superintelligence is such a poorly defined notion that one could envision it taking almost any form with equal justification: a benevolent genie that solves all the world’s problems, or a mathematician that spends all its time proving theorems so abstract that humans can’t even understand them. But when Silicon Valley tries to imagine superintelligence, what it comes up with is no-holds-barred capitalism." https://www.buzzfeednews.com/article/tedchiang/the-real-danger-to-civilization-isnt-ai-its-runaway https://www.buzzfeednews.com/article/tedchiang/the-real-dang...

ponker 6y ago
I don't think that no-holds-barred capitalism is the likeliest outcome for a superintelligent AI, but it is the one we need to be the most vigilant of. The abstract mathematician AI could just be allowed to live out its peaceful life proving ever-more-obscure theorems.
- majewsky 6y ago
  The mathematician AI may just as well decide to use the entire planet as fuel for its compute capacity.
visarga 6y ago
It is rather automation and not AI itself that will bring changes to the job market. And the article argues automation hasn't had the expected effect yet.