5 ms·

> - 94% of developers believe respectful communication in the project is important; 1% disagreed > - 89% believe FreeBSD should be welcoming to people of all b

by scythe 6y ago

> - 94% of developers believe respectful communication in the project is important; 1% disagreed > - 89% believe FreeBSD should be welcoming to people of all backgrounds; 2% disagreed > - 73% say toxic people should be removed from the Project regardless of their technical contribution; 9% disagreed If you want to avoid nonsense you can simply stick to technical discussion on project media and nobody gives a crap what you say anywhere else unless you're famous. These rulesets exist because people can't do that.

hinkley 6y ago
I often liken some of the misunderstandings we have in the tech community to party etiquette. I think it's apparent from all participants, including myself, that we don't have a great depth of knowledge about party etiquette. All attendees: Don't talk about politics at a party, or religion. If at all possible do not bring up old beefs even if conversation gets heated. Avoid people who you can't behave yourself around. Enlist other people to help you maintain that boundary, if necessary. Host/Hostess guidelines: If you throw a party, put in more than a half-assed effort at being a host. "You didn't have to come to the party" is tautological. It is in no way a defense or excuse for being an exceedingly poor host. It is a sad, weak deflection that most people see through. Especially if there was another party elsewhere at the same time. I didn't have to come to your party, you didn't have to throw one. Do it right, find someone who can, or don't do it at all.
- hinkley 6y ago
  Figuratively and literally, it is well accepted among my friends that a better time is had by all if I bring beverages to your party rather than try to throw my own. I accepted this about myself a long time ago. Helping to get the ball rolling? Still a work in progress, but something I'd like to get better at.
- monksy 6y ago
  I see a lot of these demands for a COC are people who start harassing the hosts to demand rules. Many of these cases stem from "he/she said something I don't like." (I'm on the stance that if the host "can't do something" about someone who is so toxic, they're a bad host, CoC's don't do shit about that)
  - hinkley 6y ago
    There are a lot of perpetual teenagers who want to know where the boundaries are so that they can cross them and see what happens. I saw a lot of this in the early MMO days, where people would justify any behavior that wasn't explicitly disallowed. Don't see it as much in group dynamics, but it's definitely there. Well if you don't want me to do that then you shouldn't let me. So much entitlement.
- josephg 6y ago
  I disagree with all of this. Discussing politics and religion - or any other subject that can get heated - is a great way for friendships to move out of fake niceness and into a deeper place. The movement out of fake niceness often requires going through a place of brutal honesty, but in the long run we all gain from that movement. Expressed as a value, I want to be seen for who I am, warts and all. Not for how effectively or ineffectively I can “make nice”. As for your host / hostess guidelines - this all seems to be coming from a place of judgement and repression. “If you can’t put on the mask, don’t spend time with loved ones!”. Instead I like the way I was taught in improv class. Show up as you are. If your mum just died and you have a show, don’t hide that. Instead mourn her on stage. Make your performance an expression of who you are in this moment. Hosting a dinner party but you’re depressed and cooking is too hard? Accept that. Accept it out loud so your friends know to bring food. But accept it and have the party anyway. Be honest and people will get it. When they support you in that moment, they’re supporting the real you.
  - hinkley 6y ago
    > Discussing politics and religion - or any other subject that can get heated - is a great way for friendships to move out of fake niceness and into a deeper place. I don't disagree with this. But the context matters. Discussing difficult topics face to face is profoundly different than discussing it with an audience. It's often at the top of my list for why open offices are a bad idea (one of my better professional qualities is allowing people space to share fears and doubts. I'm pretty well blocked in an open office, and restaurants and coffee shops are not always a suitable replacement) For the second paragraph, I agree with your conclusion but not quite on how you got there. > Be honest and people will get it. Can we agree that there's a problem with people not being upfront (transparent), and then deflecting/blaming everybody else?
dntbnmpls 6y ago
Those numbers don't indicate anything. For all we know 1% of the "community" voted. Not to mention FreeBSD was never a democracy. > These rulesets exist because people can't do that. These nonsense because of virtue signaling busybodies. That's it. "Don't be evil".
- qayxc 6y ago
  > "Don't be evil". ...has been dropped as the company motto of Google -I wonder why?
  - dntbnmpls 6y ago
    That's my point. Virtue signalers are deep down, evil.
    - zorpner 6y ago
      How do you distinguish between an evil virtue signaler and a virtuous person?
      - wolfgke 6y ago
        > How do you distinguish between an evil virtue signaler and a virtuous person? The latter do good things silently instead of showing off about it.
        zorpner 6y ago
        Got it -- true virtue requires not encouraging others to be virtuous. So what are you doing?
  - google234123 6y ago
    That's not a good motto though, it isn't the mission of Google and if you think about it, not being evil is pretty trivial.
monksy 6y ago
Or if you're John De Goes. He's basically had to create his own camp and projects. People will, still, try to burn everything he does down. They're dedicated and they, the same ones, keep popping up every 2 months to remind everyone. Those people are pissed off because of things that happened in the past and they didn't like the speakers that were at conferences he ran. They never let it go.
whydoyoucare 6y ago
Even with rules, people who can't, won't. I find OpenBSD's CoC [1] to be most compat and useful. Says what needs to be said, and does not indulge in pointless wordsmithing (it is a CoC, even if there are no explicit banners advertising it so). [1] https://www.openbsd.org/mail.html https://www.openbsd.org/mail.html

by scythe 6y ago

hinkley 6y ago

I often liken some of the misunderstandings we have in the tech community to party etiquette. I think it's apparent from all participants, including myself, that we don't have a great depth of knowledge about party etiquette. All attendees: Don't talk about politics at a party, or religion. If at all possible do not bring up old beefs even if conversation gets heated. Avoid people who you can't behave yourself around. Enlist other people to help you maintain that boundary, if necessary. Host/Hostess guidelines: If you throw a party, put in more than a half-assed effort at being a host. "You didn't have to come to the party" is tautological. It is in no way a defense or excuse for being an exceedingly poor host. It is a sad, weak deflection that most people see through. Especially if there was another party elsewhere at the same time. I didn't have to come to your party, you didn't have to throw one. Do it right, find someone who can, or don't do it at all.

hinkley 6y ago
Figuratively and literally, it is well accepted among my friends that a better time is had by all if I bring beverages to your party rather than try to throw my own. I accepted this about myself a long time ago. Helping to get the ball rolling? Still a work in progress, but something I'd like to get better at.
monksy 6y ago
I see a lot of these demands for a COC are people who start harassing the hosts to demand rules. Many of these cases stem from "he/she said something I don't like." (I'm on the stance that if the host "can't do something" about someone who is so toxic, they're a bad host, CoC's don't do shit about that)
- hinkley 6y ago
  There are a lot of perpetual teenagers who want to know where the boundaries are so that they can cross them and see what happens. I saw a lot of this in the early MMO days, where people would justify any behavior that wasn't explicitly disallowed. Don't see it as much in group dynamics, but it's definitely there. Well if you don't want me to do that then you shouldn't let me. So much entitlement.
josephg 6y ago
I disagree with all of this. Discussing politics and religion - or any other subject that can get heated - is a great way for friendships to move out of fake niceness and into a deeper place. The movement out of fake niceness often requires going through a place of brutal honesty, but in the long run we all gain from that movement. Expressed as a value, I want to be seen for who I am, warts and all. Not for how effectively or ineffectively I can “make nice”. As for your host / hostess guidelines - this all seems to be coming from a place of judgement and repression. “If you can’t put on the mask, don’t spend time with loved ones!”. Instead I like the way I was taught in improv class. Show up as you are. If your mum just died and you have a show, don’t hide that. Instead mourn her on stage. Make your performance an expression of who you are in this moment. Hosting a dinner party but you’re depressed and cooking is too hard? Accept that. Accept it out loud so your friends know to bring food. But accept it and have the party anyway. Be honest and people will get it. When they support you in that moment, they’re supporting the real you.
- hinkley 6y ago
  > Discussing politics and religion - or any other subject that can get heated - is a great way for friendships to move out of fake niceness and into a deeper place. I don't disagree with this. But the context matters. Discussing difficult topics face to face is profoundly different than discussing it with an audience. It's often at the top of my list for why open offices are a bad idea (one of my better professional qualities is allowing people space to share fears and doubts. I'm pretty well blocked in an open office, and restaurants and coffee shops are not always a suitable replacement) For the second paragraph, I agree with your conclusion but not quite on how you got there. > Be honest and people will get it. Can we agree that there's a problem with people not being upfront (transparent), and then deflecting/blaming everybody else?

dntbnmpls 6y ago

Those numbers don't indicate anything. For all we know 1% of the "community" voted. Not to mention FreeBSD was never a democracy. > These rulesets exist because people can't do that. These nonsense because of virtue signaling busybodies. That's it. "Don't be evil".

qayxc 6y ago
> "Don't be evil". ...has been dropped as the company motto of Google -I wonder why?
- dntbnmpls 6y ago
  That's my point. Virtue signalers are deep down, evil.
  - zorpner 6y ago
    How do you distinguish between an evil virtue signaler and a virtuous person?
    - wolfgke 6y ago
      > How do you distinguish between an evil virtue signaler and a virtuous person? The latter do good things silently instead of showing off about it.
      - zorpner 6y ago
        Got it -- true virtue requires not encouraging others to be virtuous. So what are you doing?
- google234123 6y ago
  That's not a good motto though, it isn't the mission of Google and if you think about it, not being evil is pretty trivial.

monksy 6y ago

Or if you're John De Goes. He's basically had to create his own camp and projects. People will, still, try to burn everything he does down. They're dedicated and they, the same ones, keep popping up every 2 months to remind everyone. Those people are pissed off because of things that happened in the past and they didn't like the speakers that were at conferences he ran. They never let it go.

whydoyoucare 6y ago

Even with rules, people who can't, won't. I find OpenBSD's CoC [1] to be most compat and useful. Says what needs to be said, and does not indulge in pointless wordsmithing (it is a CoC, even if there are no explicit banners advertising it so). [1] https://www.openbsd.org/mail.html https://www.openbsd.org/mail.html