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I've heard the same line of argumentation used against all kinds of labor unions though. e.g. "teachers unions are failing our kids because they protect bad/apa

I've heard the same line of argumentation used against all kinds of labor unions though. e.g. "teachers unions are failing our kids because they protect bad/apathetic/partisan teachers" or "auto unions are why American auto companies are failing since they protect workers who work 30 minutes a day and slack off the rest".

analog31 6y ago
There's something to this argument, in my view. I think that unions are torn between serving the "labor movement" for lack of a better term, and serving the narrow interests of their most senior or influential members. I grew up in a suburb of Detroit at a time when the auto industry was contracting. What I recall was that senior assembly line workers (my neighbors) were working 60 hour weeks and pulling down overtime pay, while junior workers were getting laid off. Naturally, unemployed people had no union representation at all, and this was a perfect opportunity for politicians to start stoking anti-union resentment amongst the working class, which persists today. Meanwhile as I recall in one of the European countries, perhaps Germany, the unions negotiated with the government and agreed to a 4 day work week, in order to keep a larger number of workers employed. As reported in the US, this became fodder for "those lazy Europeans and their 4 day work weeks." In the US, the car companies reacted by pulling the plug on entire factories and moving them to anti-union states.
minikites 6y ago
You should examine who is telling you those things about non-police labor unions and what they stand to gain by saying those things.
- root_axis 6y ago
  Well sure, I am only human after all, but trying to have a discussion based off of what I perceive is going on in someone's head rather than based on the merit of the argument is usually not a fruitful way to have a discussion. Further, I have personally lived through experiences where bad teachers have been protected by the union, including a teacher who made a pass at students but was ultimately protected by the union. Years later, that teacher was eventually let go, but it was only after said teacher made some unsavory comments on social media and the school faced a ton of backlash because of it. That experience did not change my view on unions even though I felt that they should have been fired a very long time ago.
thewebcount 6y ago
> "auto unions are why American auto companies are failing since they protect workers who work 30 minutes a day and slack off the rest". I grew up in Flint, MI and my father was an electrical engineer at one of the 3 major automakers. We would frequently go to the auto plants for school field trips. I remember one particular trip where we were walking around the production floor and there was a guy just sitting in a chair sleeping right in the middle of everything. Nobody seemed to think it was a good idea to wake him up. Everyone just worked around him like he wasn't there. It was kind of surreal. I'm not saying that proves the point in your quote above, but the unions were notorious for making it impossible to fire employees even if they showed up drunk or high or didn't do their jobs. They also didn't seem to be protecting workers interests very well, as their wages have stagnated for decades and they've lost the great benefits they used to have. It doesn't mean unions are a bad idea, but the auto unions seemed to be a particularly bad implementation.

analog31 6y ago

There's something to this argument, in my view. I think that unions are torn between serving the "labor movement" for lack of a better term, and serving the narrow interests of their most senior or influential members. I grew up in a suburb of Detroit at a time when the auto industry was contracting. What I recall was that senior assembly line workers (my neighbors) were working 60 hour weeks and pulling down overtime pay, while junior workers were getting laid off. Naturally, unemployed people had no union representation at all, and this was a perfect opportunity for politicians to start stoking anti-union resentment amongst the working class, which persists today. Meanwhile as I recall in one of the European countries, perhaps Germany, the unions negotiated with the government and agreed to a 4 day work week, in order to keep a larger number of workers employed. As reported in the US, this became fodder for "those lazy Europeans and their 4 day work weeks." In the US, the car companies reacted by pulling the plug on entire factories and moving them to anti-union states.

minikites 6y ago

You should examine who is telling you those things about non-police labor unions and what they stand to gain by saying those things.

root_axis 6y ago
Well sure, I am only human after all, but trying to have a discussion based off of what I perceive is going on in someone's head rather than based on the merit of the argument is usually not a fruitful way to have a discussion. Further, I have personally lived through experiences where bad teachers have been protected by the union, including a teacher who made a pass at students but was ultimately protected by the union. Years later, that teacher was eventually let go, but it was only after said teacher made some unsavory comments on social media and the school faced a ton of backlash because of it. That experience did not change my view on unions even though I felt that they should have been fired a very long time ago.

thewebcount 6y ago

> "auto unions are why American auto companies are failing since they protect workers who work 30 minutes a day and slack off the rest". I grew up in Flint, MI and my father was an electrical engineer at one of the 3 major automakers. We would frequently go to the auto plants for school field trips. I remember one particular trip where we were walking around the production floor and there was a guy just sitting in a chair sleeping right in the middle of everything. Nobody seemed to think it was a good idea to wake him up. Everyone just worked around him like he wasn't there. It was kind of surreal. I'm not saying that proves the point in your quote above, but the unions were notorious for making it impossible to fire employees even if they showed up drunk or high or didn't do their jobs. They also didn't seem to be protecting workers interests very well, as their wages have stagnated for decades and they've lost the great benefits they used to have. It doesn't mean unions are a bad idea, but the auto unions seemed to be a particularly bad implementation.