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I see a lot of people saying "Defund the police doesn't mean no police". Ok, fine. But it's a shitty slogan that, regardless of actual meaning, is doing more
by eric_b 6y ago
I see a lot of people saying "Defund the police doesn't mean no police". Ok, fine.
But it's a shitty slogan that, regardless of actual meaning, is doing more harm than good. Normal people don't get the nuance. To them it just sounds like the "defunders" want to get rid of all police. And normal people think that is a very fucking bad idea.
Do you know what regular people do when they are worried about their safety, children or their property? They vote in candidates who are tough on crime.
I think for meaningful police reform the slogan needs to change. You need to get normal people on board. "Defunding" is not the way to do that.
- throwsoundpop 6y agoIt's akin to "single payer" in the health insurance context. If you're not already well-versed in the subject, you probably won't know what it means, because it's focusing on the process rather than the intended result.
- minikites 6y agoWe've tried to reform the police for decades. It hasn't worked. Defund the police.
- voisin 6y agoHow about “Deunionize Police”? Doesn’t have the same ring, but would solve many of the issues people are protesting about (accountability, etc).
- KorematsuFred 6y agoDemocrats are unlikely to do that. If de-unionizing police is solution to incompetent cops what is the solution to incompetent schools ?
- joelhoffman 6y agoI think most people do not see most teachers as the basic problem in public schools. E.g. polls show overwhelming support for paying teachers more. The same has been true of police, but less so - Maybe that's changed? If people perceive most of the workers as the basic problem in addition to the management and the government, which they rarely do, but police may now be an exception, I don't see why the union should be spared.
- nickff 6y agoThe problem is that would lead to cognitive dissonance, as the people who want to defund the police also tend to be very pro-union.
- deleted 6y ago[deleted]
- gremlinsinc 6y agoI lean libertarian socialist. Big unionist, and I say fuck police unions. End them all.
- eric_b 6y agoPersonally I'd go with "Reform the Police" or "Police the Police". Or maybe "De-Militarize the Police" which is not the only goal but one with broader support.
- minikites 6y agoHow would de-militarizing the police affect the overwhelming racism problem that exists in police departments nationwide?
- neonate 6y agoJust as a slogan, "Reform" is too boring and vague. "Police the police" is catchy but sounds more about oversight, which is not really the idea here. I thought of "Reduce the police", which might get broader support than "defund", but isn't as catchy and maybe still wouldn't get majority support. Polls show the police are still popular, though obviously and justifiably less popular lately. I suspect these calls for defunding (and abolition) are going to scare public opinion back in the other direction, which is a pity, since there really is a reform position to stake out here. For example, I bet even most police offers don't want to be the ones to have to deal with mental illness, addiction, and homelessness. A moderate and non-scary reform movement would surely get massive public support at this time, while a radical one is likely to provoke a counterreaction. It probably always works that way though, and eventually something comes out of it anyhow.
- gremlinsinc 6y agoMaybe let BLM pick and setup their own police inspectors and have some oversight over an agency that polices the police. Instead of D.A. handling cop cases it would be members of this agency (they'd have lawyers who handle prosecutions - their own D.A.). Could be on a national or state by state level.
- woah 6y agoThis is worrying to many on the left, since it implies that unions could be bad. The ideologically consistent viewpoint is that the very concept of policing itself is so evil that it taints even associated unions.
- Fjolsvith 6y agoMaybe we could reorganize the police as a private enforcement group that wouldn't answer to the courts or constitution? Sort of like the brownshirts before WWII. [1] Edit: Youtube took down a video of them back in 2019. [2] 1. https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Sturmabteilung https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Sturmabteilung 2. https://paleofuture.gizmodo.com/youtube-bans-anti-nazi-documentary-from-1938-for-violat-1837436638 https://paleofuture.gizmodo.com/youtube-bans-anti-nazi-docum...
- gremlinsinc 6y agoThat sounds like it goes in the opposite direction, we need police to have MORE not LESS oversight and be under more scrutiny and actually get punished (probably 2-3x the sentence of a non-officer).
- Fjolsvith 6y agoAnd yet, the no-police zone in Seattle is just what I described.
- clamprecht 6y agoBut I think it's healthy that actual defunding is on the table now. The police need to be accountable. It may be a solution to the police union problem. Defund, start over without the union.
- minikites 6y agoExactly, don't start your negotiations with a plan that is already a compromise.
- twblalock 6y agoReforming an institution always costs more money, not less.
- danaris 6y agoThe point isn't to save money. It's to force reform by taking away the current police department's money. (This is an excellent example of why the "defund" slogan is confusing; however, of the other suggestions I've seen in this thread, I haven't seen any that make clear the level of change that's needed.)
- twblalock 6y agoWhat do you expect to happen when you take away their ability to pay for reform? I can think of a few things that will require more money: better/longer training for officers, and doing more investigations into citizen complaints. That stuff isn't free. When you defund an organization and at the same time demand it does better, you create a siege mentality among the members of the organization. They will get worse, not better.
- danaris 6y agoAt least in the cases where I've heard specifics, the intention is to essentially disband the existing police department and start a new one, that doesn't have the old bad police officers or the old union, protecting them from the consequences of their lawbreaking.
- castratikron 6y agoHow about "descope"?
- clamprecht 6y agoReminds me of what my Programming Languages professor used to say, "Scope - it's not a mouthwash!" Most people don't know what scope, or descope means in this context.
- hn_throwaway_99 6y agoI read another comment elsewhere with which I totally agree. I think we're at a tipping point in the US where if the slogan was "End the War on Drugs" you're likely to get majority support, and ending the war on drugs would do more than any single thing to bring about social justice in the US. Contrast that with "defund the police", the goals of which are amorphous even from its supporters, and if you don't think calls to defund the police are met with stares and questions like "are you insane" in any place besides mid-to-large urban areas in the US, you really need to pop your social bubble. For better or for worse in a democracy you need to convince the majority (or near majority) of the population over to your side. The slogan "defund the police" is not the way to do it.
- eric_b 6y agoYes! "End the War on Drugs" is exactly the kind of thing that could get meaningful traction and has a relatively concrete set of goals.
- Fjolsvith 6y agoProbably still confusing in any place besides mid-to-large urban areas in the US.
- hn_throwaway_99 6y agoThanks to the opioid epidemic, this is no longer true. There are huge swaths of rural and Rust Belt America that now realize that the criminal justice approach to a drug problem is counter productive.
- gremlinsinc 6y agoHow about end incarceration for non-violent offenses? Drugs, Shop-lifting, DUI, Robbery (unarmed), Prostitution, Protesting, etc... We have tech to monitor ppl wherever they go, we could easily monitor these people w/ ankle bracelets etc and make sure they're behaving. We could require them to go to therapy and figure out the root of why they do what they do, you know what you'd do w/ a child who's acting out and misbehaving.... Maybe we curtail a lot of issues.... Save prison for pedophiles, rapists, murderers, assaults, etc....
- awillen 6y agoI agree that to a lot of people, defund seems to imply abolish, which is not a great position. On the one hand, I think the word choice is somewhat purposeful, as it's designed to sound extreme and appeal to people who see the police as an extreme problem. On the other hand, it definitely lends itself to purposeful misrepresentation by opponents. That said, I think given the popularity of the movement, the phrasing doesn't necessarily doom it. It's a popular enough phrase now that it's getting explanatory media coverage (I just saw the last John Oliver, where he explained that defunding the police doesn't mean abolishing them, and there's lots of other articles out there if you Google "defund the police"), and since the idea behind it is good, once people understand it I think there's a reasonable likelihood they get on board. With all that in mind, I actually still struggle to come up with better phrasing that's both strong enough and also clearer in meaning. The obvious phrase would be "reform the police," but police reform has been talked about too much already and hasn't been effective as previously described, so that's got too much baggage to be good. "Fix the police" could be okay, but it's too general. "Redistribute the police budget to a wider range of services" doesn't exactly roll off the tongue. It's a tough one.
- gremlinsinc 6y agoAbolish has it's merits, assuming they replace it after abolishing. Abolish is more.... tear down and rebuild back up something similar but re-imagined... maybe following the Swedish model. But, really the police system is so draconian, might we not be better w/out it than we are now? I mean have you seen the videos of mayhem at the hands of the police, it's hard to think of them at all in a positive light. I mean, did Germany keep the S.S. Cops are literally murdering, abusing, and going rogue - and may actually be fully infiltrated by purpose by white power extremists. Some of the cops responsible for Eric Garner dying, actually wore t-shirts saying "I Can Breath" for fuck sake. Mayhem would be better than police inciting of mayhem. All the rioting, looting, etc didn't happen in a vacuum the COPS CAUSED IT by their corrupt actions.
- thu2111 6y agoOr phrased another way, meaningful improvements don't fit inside snappy slogans. Which in turn means they don't really fit inside protest movements. Obama wrote an essay about this. He said the only way to get meaningful change is to get involved in local politics. "Vote in municipal elections" is not a slogan that will appeal to the kinds of people who are fanatical BLM activists though.
- adamsea 6y agoI feel like the same quote-unquote “normal people” (I think it’s a dangerous term because it’s unquantifiable and can be used to justify anything) you describe here have also been passive contributors to the racial violence of police departments across the US for years now. So I challenge your logic and your assumptions. If anything the last two decades of American politics have shown that a highly-mobilized and engaged minority, if they have leverage over officials via money or votes, is able to shift policy _despite_ opposition from a numerical majority of people.
- evilantnie 6y agoWho are these normal people you're referring to? Why is it a scary concept to them? Why should the message be diluted to reduce normal people's fears? It's explicitly demanding an alternative system to one that has for decades instilled fear of violence towards Black folks. I support the slogan, and the weight behind it. The intention is to spark discomfort in normal people, change won't happen when normal people feel comfortable.
- vsareto 6y ago>The intention is to spark discomfort in normal people, change won't happen when normal people feel comfortable. This leads to: Everyone's constantly being spammed messages being made to feel uncomfortable because someone, somewhere always has an agenda to push. That's leadership through fear. 100%.
- adamsea 6y agoAlso — you say the slogan is doing more harm than good. How do you know? Based on your own judgement, based on talking with your friends, based reading articles in XYZ publication, based on “common sense”, based on what?
- clairity 6y agoso the slogan is the problem, not the current policing regime, or the perceived benefits to ~200M people incentivized by comfort or complacency to keep that regime in place? any slogan will be disparaged by vested interests. let's try not to distract from the core issue.
- thewebcount 6y ago> so the slogan is the problem, not the current policing regime No, that's not what OP is saying at all. They're saying that the goal is good, but the slogan misleads people who haven't put in time to understand it. And most people haven't put in time to understand it, and won't based on the slogan. The goal is great, but the slogan is hurting the goal.
- wdr1 6y agoI worry it's a shitty slogan that will undercut real change. Many will think it's no police, hence no police brutality, only to learn it's really just a re-organization of the police. Potentially a minor one, as many (most?) haven't shared details. Cynically, it seems an effort to take away attention from real reform, such as eliminating qualified immunity or banning police unions.
- gremlinsinc 6y agoIf huge swaths are pushing for defunding, wouldn't this spur the more conservative dems/gop to say oh shit, half measures aren't going to work, if we DONT reform, we're gonna get abolishment or more riots? I mean seriously, this is a watershed moment in history unlike we've ever seen before and might ever see again. Real reform may come by getting strong on 'defund', and instead we end police unions... Abolitionism may be just ending all police unions, that could be a big enough abolition to end a lot of this systemic bullshit. (That combined w/ ending choke holds, qualified immunity, and prosecuting cops and not holding them accountable).