7 ms·

I think the best thing for America would be to completely dissolve the police union. This single action should fix a lot of the issues.

jeffbee 6y ago
That's really what "defund the police" does. The police union has a toxic contract with the police department. By dissolving the counterparty of the contract, you remove it from the equation. New law enforcement agencies can start from scratch without the weight of either the contract or, initially, any of the problematic personnel.
- hpoe 6y ago
  So having seen many ground up rewrites of code I have to ask how do we make sure that when we redo the police we avoid the problems we got this time around?
  - the-dude 6y ago
    Try Rust?
  - jeffbee 6y ago
    Police toxicity is a path-dependent phenomenon. We got here by decades of incrementalism, where politicians, many of whom were, at the time, avowed racists, agreed to various aspects of civilian-police relations. Simply starting over today with current civilian leadership to draft a new doctrine guarantees a dramatically different outcome.
    - seunosewa 6y ago
      > Simply starting over today with current civilian leadership to draft a new doctrine guarantees a dramatically different outcome. The current leadership (Trump) is very racist and authoritarian, so I'm not sure that your confidence fits the current time;
      - trianglem 6y ago
        Yes but the federal government has only so much influence in local level decisions so it will still pan out to be a massive net positive.
designdesign 6y ago
My local police union has been called out multiple times for publishing racist things in their newsletter and literally nothing has come from it. They can openly publicize in print that they're racist and continue policing. They also blame "antifa" for any anti-police action without investigating.
root_axis 6y ago
Are unions really the problem? Why not raise the standards and the wages for police officers instead of dismantling labor power?
- basch 6y ago
  Because the unions have much more power than labor negotiations, including being able to decide what laws and policies apply to the police departments.
  - root_axis 6y ago
    How is it that police unions can determine what laws apply to police departments? I've never heard of that, could you point me to where I could read up more on that?
    - pwinnski 6y ago
      Here's one recent article: https://reason.com/2020/06/03/its-time-to-bust-police-unions/ https://reason.com/2020/06/03/its-time-to-bust-police-unions...
      - root_axis 6y ago
        So the article seems to present the typical argument against unions, i.e. "they protect bad employees", but ultimately the story concludes with the creation of a new union that negotiated an improved and ostensibly successful deescalation policy as part of the labor agreement. I don't think article presents a convincing case that unions are the problem.
        pwinnski 6y ago
        I gave you the link that was closest at hand. There are many. For text, try https://www.buzzfeednews.com/article/melissasegura/police-unions-history-minneapolis-reform-george-floyd https://www.buzzfeednews.com/article/melissasegura/police-un... For video, and I highly recommend this, try https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Wf4cea5oObY https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Wf4cea5oObY But if you don't like BuzzFeed or John Oliver, it's trivial to find articles about the harms caused by police unions from sources across the political spectrum. In the abstract, conceptually, unions aren't a problem. I love unions! But police unions have such a long and consistent pattern of making police worse that I'm not sure any police union can maintain good things for more than a year or two. I would be pro-police-union if police unions worked like all other unions, fighting for better pay and conditions for their members. That's just not how police unions work in the USA. P.S. As you say, the article mentions a new police union that so far seems to be okay. It should be noted that union was formed after completely dissolving the existing police force of Camden, NJ, and all of its contracts, including the contract with the existing police union. Time will tell whether the new union starts to be a problem or not, but certainly starting under the threat of "act up and we will dissolve the entire police force again" is a good start.

jeffbee 6y ago

That's really what "defund the police" does. The police union has a toxic contract with the police department. By dissolving the counterparty of the contract, you remove it from the equation. New law enforcement agencies can start from scratch without the weight of either the contract or, initially, any of the problematic personnel.

hpoe 6y ago
So having seen many ground up rewrites of code I have to ask how do we make sure that when we redo the police we avoid the problems we got this time around?
- the-dude 6y ago
  Try Rust?
- jeffbee 6y ago
  Police toxicity is a path-dependent phenomenon. We got here by decades of incrementalism, where politicians, many of whom were, at the time, avowed racists, agreed to various aspects of civilian-police relations. Simply starting over today with current civilian leadership to draft a new doctrine guarantees a dramatically different outcome.
  - seunosewa 6y ago
    > Simply starting over today with current civilian leadership to draft a new doctrine guarantees a dramatically different outcome. The current leadership (Trump) is very racist and authoritarian, so I'm not sure that your confidence fits the current time;
    - trianglem 6y ago
      Yes but the federal government has only so much influence in local level decisions so it will still pan out to be a massive net positive.

designdesign 6y ago

My local police union has been called out multiple times for publishing racist things in their newsletter and literally nothing has come from it. They can openly publicize in print that they're racist and continue policing. They also blame "antifa" for any anti-police action without investigating.

root_axis 6y ago

Are unions really the problem? Why not raise the standards and the wages for police officers instead of dismantling labor power?

basch 6y ago
Because the unions have much more power than labor negotiations, including being able to decide what laws and policies apply to the police departments.
- root_axis 6y ago
  How is it that police unions can determine what laws apply to police departments? I've never heard of that, could you point me to where I could read up more on that?
  - pwinnski 6y ago
    Here's one recent article: https://reason.com/2020/06/03/its-time-to-bust-police-unions/ https://reason.com/2020/06/03/its-time-to-bust-police-unions...
    - root_axis 6y ago
      So the article seems to present the typical argument against unions, i.e. "they protect bad employees", but ultimately the story concludes with the creation of a new union that negotiated an improved and ostensibly successful deescalation policy as part of the labor agreement. I don't think article presents a convincing case that unions are the problem.
      - pwinnski 6y ago
        I gave you the link that was closest at hand. There are many. For text, try https://www.buzzfeednews.com/article/melissasegura/police-unions-history-minneapolis-reform-george-floyd https://www.buzzfeednews.com/article/melissasegura/police-un... For video, and I highly recommend this, try https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Wf4cea5oObY https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Wf4cea5oObY But if you don't like BuzzFeed or John Oliver, it's trivial to find articles about the harms caused by police unions from sources across the political spectrum. In the abstract, conceptually, unions aren't a problem. I love unions! But police unions have such a long and consistent pattern of making police worse that I'm not sure any police union can maintain good things for more than a year or two. I would be pro-police-union if police unions worked like all other unions, fighting for better pay and conditions for their members. That's just not how police unions work in the USA. P.S. As you say, the article mentions a new police union that so far seems to be okay. It should be noted that union was formed after completely dissolving the existing police force of Camden, NJ, and all of its contracts, including the contract with the existing police union. Time will tell whether the new union starts to be a problem or not, but certainly starting under the threat of "act up and we will dissolve the entire police force again" is a good start.