5 ms·

the fragmentation is in the non Ubuntu distros. Ubuntu alone has probably 70% linux market share

waddlesplash 6y ago
That's not what I mean by "fragmentation"; I mean that the Linux desktop is a collection of different software projects (GRUB, the kernel, X11, ALSA, systemd, GNOME, ...) which are combined to form the operating system proper. Ubuntu is just as fragmented as any other distribution here. In Haiku, on the other hand, the bootloader, the kernel, window manager / display server, init system, base applications, etc. are all developed by one team in one source code repository.
- tialaramex 6y ago
  Ha. Recommended exercise for people who might be inclined to believe this hogwash: Go find where in that "one source code repository" for Haiku they implement RSA to make their web browser work. You won't find it. After a while you'll dig down to a layer that just calls OpenSSL, the same OpenSSL you'd be calling on a Linux distribution. Was this developed by Haiku's "one team" in their "one source code repository"? No of course not and yet here it is, foundational to their operating system.
  - waddlesplash 6y ago
    Okay. And the same is true of macOS; they use LibreSSL. We also use libpng, libgif, libjpeg, etc. and of course WebKit for the web browser. Nobody is claiming that this is a 100%-from-scratch-no-reuse-allowed project. What's your point?
    - wadera 6y ago
      To use Haiku in a decent way (not complete, but close enough), you need to use all the Qt and other ported software. So your arguments don't stand.
      - waddlesplash 6y ago
        My main development VM for Haiku has no Qt software, or even the Qt libraries, installed. I'm using native apps for code editing, debugging, error messages, etc. So that's not quite true. I'm not sure what arguments I made "don't quite stand" simply because you need to use Qt apps. In fact I was arguing that using Qt apps is perfectly alright! LibreOffice is not "native" on Windows or macOS, but people still use it there, yes?
        wadera 6y ago
        What? Are you really using the OS you are developing in a VM? And we should think you are serious.
        waddlesplash 6y ago
        Uh, both of my main machines have bare-metal installs and I do develop from them. But when you are doing kernel development, it's much easier to "unbrick" a VM than bare metal, yes?
        wadera 6y ago
        Everyone can read clearly it's your main installation.
        waddlesplash 6y ago
        I'm glad you know more about how I use Haiku than I do. /s
      - anthk 6y ago
        The Be/Haiku GUI doesn't use QT at all.
  - ac29 6y ago
    I think the comparison was to, for example, one of the BSDs who also distribute the entire OS as one project. Of course there is going to be third party code, its immensely complicated to "make a web browser work".
  - anthk 6y ago
    Windows uses BSD code too, A typical Linux distro back in the day used BSD TCP/IP and a lot of BSD tols. Show me a GNU TCP/IP stack or socket implementations. Oh, wait. Also, OpenSSH. GNU LSH exists, but it's... ahem. A bit misrepresented; if not, not at all.
- wadera 6y ago
  It's interesting that you don't mention the absolutely unusable browser that the project is continuing to develop, instead of using a modern mature browser like Chromium.
  - waddlesplash 6y ago
    WebPositive in based on modern WebKit (specifically a snapshot from a few months ago), which is the same engine that powers Safari. Is that not a "modern, mature browser"? The bugs in Web+ are mostly in our WebKit port, which is continuing to improve. We have no interest in trying to port Chromium. Even OpenBSD, which uses X11 that Chromium already has a native backend for, has thousands of lines of patches they have to maintain (and spend hours and hours rebasing every upgrade). Haiku would have to maintain far more than a few thousand lines, as we would have to add a new graphics backend at the very least. Firefox is better in this department, but has a codebase larger than Haiku itself, and none of us have any expertise there. If someone knowledgeable about Firefox's codebase wanted to port it, we'd be happy to help where we can, but there's only so many of us.
    - exikyut 6y ago
      > OpenBSD, which uses X11 that Chromium already has a native backend for, has thousands of lines of patches they have to maintain (and spend hours and hours rebasing every upgrade). Wow, you're not kidding. https://github.com/openbsd/ports/tree/master/www/chromium/patches https://github.com/openbsd/ports/tree/master/www/chromium/pa... is positively scary.
      - wadera 6y ago
        Please have a closer look at those patches. 98% of it is constituted of C preprocessor ifdefs. This means that most of them just enable the same features as Linux alongside other operating systems. Most of it is purely code configuration. Haiku instead reimplement many parts of WebKit, instead of relying on mature code. This is the reason why the WebKit performance on Haiku is so poor.

That's not what I mean by "fragmentation"; I mean that the Linux desktop is a collection of different software projects (GRUB, the kernel, X11, ALSA, systemd, GNOME, ...) which are combined to form the operating system proper. Ubuntu is just as fragmented as any other distribution here. In Haiku, on the other hand, the bootloader, the kernel, window manager / display server, init system, base applications, etc. are all developed by one team in one source code repository.

tialaramex 6y ago
Ha. Recommended exercise for people who might be inclined to believe this hogwash: Go find where in that "one source code repository" for Haiku they implement RSA to make their web browser work. You won't find it. After a while you'll dig down to a layer that just calls OpenSSL, the same OpenSSL you'd be calling on a Linux distribution. Was this developed by Haiku's "one team" in their "one source code repository"? No of course not and yet here it is, foundational to their operating system.
- waddlesplash 6y ago
  Okay. And the same is true of macOS; they use LibreSSL. We also use libpng, libgif, libjpeg, etc. and of course WebKit for the web browser. Nobody is claiming that this is a 100%-from-scratch-no-reuse-allowed project. What's your point?
  - wadera 6y ago
    To use Haiku in a decent way (not complete, but close enough), you need to use all the Qt and other ported software. So your arguments don't stand.
    - waddlesplash 6y ago
      My main development VM for Haiku has no Qt software, or even the Qt libraries, installed. I'm using native apps for code editing, debugging, error messages, etc. So that's not quite true. I'm not sure what arguments I made "don't quite stand" simply because you need to use Qt apps. In fact I was arguing that using Qt apps is perfectly alright! LibreOffice is not "native" on Windows or macOS, but people still use it there, yes?
      - wadera 6y ago
        What? Are you really using the OS you are developing in a VM? And we should think you are serious.
        waddlesplash 6y ago
        Uh, both of my main machines have bare-metal installs and I do develop from them. But when you are doing kernel development, it's much easier to "unbrick" a VM than bare metal, yes?
        wadera 6y ago
        Everyone can read clearly it's your main installation.
        waddlesplash 6y ago
        I'm glad you know more about how I use Haiku than I do. /s
    - anthk 6y ago
      The Be/Haiku GUI doesn't use QT at all.
- ac29 6y ago
  I think the comparison was to, for example, one of the BSDs who also distribute the entire OS as one project. Of course there is going to be third party code, its immensely complicated to "make a web browser work".
- anthk 6y ago
  Windows uses BSD code too, A typical Linux distro back in the day used BSD TCP/IP and a lot of BSD tols. Show me a GNU TCP/IP stack or socket implementations. Oh, wait. Also, OpenSSH. GNU LSH exists, but it's... ahem. A bit misrepresented; if not, not at all.
wadera 6y ago
It's interesting that you don't mention the absolutely unusable browser that the project is continuing to develop, instead of using a modern mature browser like Chromium.
- waddlesplash 6y ago
  WebPositive in based on modern WebKit (specifically a snapshot from a few months ago), which is the same engine that powers Safari. Is that not a "modern, mature browser"? The bugs in Web+ are mostly in our WebKit port, which is continuing to improve. We have no interest in trying to port Chromium. Even OpenBSD, which uses X11 that Chromium already has a native backend for, has thousands of lines of patches they have to maintain (and spend hours and hours rebasing every upgrade). Haiku would have to maintain far more than a few thousand lines, as we would have to add a new graphics backend at the very least. Firefox is better in this department, but has a codebase larger than Haiku itself, and none of us have any expertise there. If someone knowledgeable about Firefox's codebase wanted to port it, we'd be happy to help where we can, but there's only so many of us.
  - exikyut 6y ago
    > OpenBSD, which uses X11 that Chromium already has a native backend for, has thousands of lines of patches they have to maintain (and spend hours and hours rebasing every upgrade). Wow, you're not kidding. https://github.com/openbsd/ports/tree/master/www/chromium/patches https://github.com/openbsd/ports/tree/master/www/chromium/pa... is positively scary.
    - wadera 6y ago
      Please have a closer look at those patches. 98% of it is constituted of C preprocessor ifdefs. This means that most of them just enable the same features as Linux alongside other operating systems. Most of it is purely code configuration. Haiku instead reimplement many parts of WebKit, instead of relying on mature code. This is the reason why the WebKit performance on Haiku is so poor.