3 ms·

> I can see this leading to mass exodus of the Mac platform for web developers. Why _web_ developers? I'd have thought that web developers would be some of th

> I can see this leading to mass exodus of the Mac platform for web developers. Why _web_ developers? I'd have thought that web developers would be some of the last developers to abandon Macs due to a change in architecture given that lots of web development is done in scripting languages which would need minimal support to move architecture, and the fact that Apple's ARM chips tend to perform well in JS benchmarks. I'd expect that it would be system software engineers working in languages like C/C++ who would abandon the platform given that the majority of their tools and libraries may need extensive porting work.

jordache 6y ago
web development has close relationship with graphics, either creation of graphics, or consumption. The latter category require the rich ecosystem of apps on the Mac platform. Linux is a poor option in this regard.
eyelidlessness 6y ago
Many web developers still need to test Windows-only versions of IE and Edge.
- cpeterso 6y ago
  Windows 10 now supports ARM64. I don't know if it includes IE, though.
  - eyelidlessness 6y ago
    I think there were some Win8 IE builds for ARM but I don’t think the full range of versions people target is available
    - amatecha 6y ago
      Yeah they had IE for ARM because of the Surface RT, I believe
bgorman 6y ago
Web developers frequently use Docker for Mac which is a way to run Linux containers (which are most frequently built for x86-64), which requires a way to run a x86-64 hypervisor. Docker for Mac runs a Linux VM that in turn runs the containers running on developers laptops.
- stingraycharles 6y ago
  Doesn’t this answer your own question though, the Docker vm is just virtualized to x86 and that’s it?
  - Wowfunhappy 6y ago
    Virtualization ≠ emulation, for purely cpu-bound tasks performance can be near-native as long as the underlying processor architecture is the same. Not so if you're emulating x86 on ARM...
  - panpanna 6y ago
    It's virtualized for the same architecture, which is not very costly on today's CPUs. ARM emulating x86 is a whole different beast. On the other hand, why not run arm-docker on a virtual arm-linux?? Why does it have to be x86?
    - jitl 6y ago
      Last time Apple did this (PPC -> x86), the new Intel CPUs were so much faster & more efficient than the equivalent PPC chip that programs ran at the same speed under emulation, and the system & native programs ran much faster, so it was still a worthy upgrade.
      - btown 6y ago
        For power efficiency this may be true this time as well... but for sheer performance and latency under spiky web-style workflows, I'm not hopeful.
runjake 6y ago
Probably alluding to the current web developer love of Docker.
- ogre_codes 6y ago
  Not just docker, any virtual environment. If I'm deploying to a VM on Linode, its x86. Unless you are serving static content, you want your dev environment as near as possible to your server.

jordache 6y ago

web development has close relationship with graphics, either creation of graphics, or consumption. The latter category require the rich ecosystem of apps on the Mac platform. Linux is a poor option in this regard.

eyelidlessness 6y ago

Many web developers still need to test Windows-only versions of IE and Edge.

cpeterso 6y ago
Windows 10 now supports ARM64. I don't know if it includes IE, though.
- eyelidlessness 6y ago
  I think there were some Win8 IE builds for ARM but I don’t think the full range of versions people target is available
  - amatecha 6y ago
    Yeah they had IE for ARM because of the Surface RT, I believe

bgorman 6y ago

Web developers frequently use Docker for Mac which is a way to run Linux containers (which are most frequently built for x86-64), which requires a way to run a x86-64 hypervisor. Docker for Mac runs a Linux VM that in turn runs the containers running on developers laptops.

stingraycharles 6y ago
Doesn’t this answer your own question though, the Docker vm is just virtualized to x86 and that’s it?
- Wowfunhappy 6y ago
  Virtualization ≠ emulation, for purely cpu-bound tasks performance can be near-native as long as the underlying processor architecture is the same. Not so if you're emulating x86 on ARM...
- panpanna 6y ago
  It's virtualized for the same architecture, which is not very costly on today's CPUs. ARM emulating x86 is a whole different beast. On the other hand, why not run arm-docker on a virtual arm-linux?? Why does it have to be x86?
  - jitl 6y ago
    Last time Apple did this (PPC -> x86), the new Intel CPUs were so much faster & more efficient than the equivalent PPC chip that programs ran at the same speed under emulation, and the system & native programs ran much faster, so it was still a worthy upgrade.
    - btown 6y ago
      For power efficiency this may be true this time as well... but for sheer performance and latency under spiky web-style workflows, I'm not hopeful.

runjake 6y ago

Probably alluding to the current web developer love of Docker.

ogre_codes 6y ago
Not just docker, any virtual environment. If I'm deploying to a VM on Linode, its x86. Unless you are serving static content, you want your dev environment as near as possible to your server.