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I wonder how things would have stacked with OpenJ9 - AdoptOpenJDK project makes OpenJ9 builds available for Java 8/11/13/14 - so it should be trivial to include

I wonder how things would have stacked with OpenJ9 - AdoptOpenJDK project makes OpenJ9 builds available for Java 8/11/13/14 - so it should be trivial to include it in the benchmarks. We have been experimenting with it in light of the Oracle licensing situation and it does provide interesting set of options - AOT, various GCs (metronome, gencon, balanced) along with many other differentiators to OpenJDK like JITServer which offloads JIT compilation to remote nodes. https://www.eclipse.org/openj9/docs/gc/ https://www.eclipse.org/openj9/docs/gc/ It doesn't get as much coverage when it should - it's production hardened - IBM has used it and still uses it for all their products - and it's fully open source.

pron 6y ago
> in light of the Oracle licensing situation You mean the licensing situation where Oracle completed open-sourcing the entire JDK and made Java free of field-of-use restrictions for the first time in its history? If you're talking about the JDK builds you download from Oracle, then there are two (each linking to the other): one paid, for support customers, and one 100% free and open-source: http://jdk.java.net/ http://jdk.java.net/
- blinkingled 6y ago
  Many organizations need to have supported 1.7 and 1.8 releases and it's a lot of money to spend on per core licensing which is a new thing after Oracle took over. The link you posted do not have free updated binaries for JDK 7 or 8. For those you have to pay. A lot. So it makes sense to look for non Oracle JDK and along with OpenJDK, OpenJ9 is a great choice.
  - pron 6y ago
    First, what do you mean by "after Oracle took over"? JDK 7 and 8 were released by Oracle (6 was the last one under Sun). Second, you always had to pay for the JDK after ~5 years of free public updates, and the price now is lower than before. Finally, OpenJDK is the name of Oracle's one and only Java implementation project, with contributions from other companies; OpenJ9 is, indeed, a completely separate project by IBM, but ~80% of that JDK is copied from OpenJDK. And those paid support subscriptions? They fund most of OpenJDK's development.
    - blinkingled 6y ago
      Not sure what you're getting defensive about - the Oracle JDK licensing change was a recent thing than JDK 7 or 8 release dates. And the per core licensing isn't cheap. So that gets companies to seek cheaper alternatives. What is there to argue about? It's a fact that Oracle changed licensing on JDK 7 and 8 they admit that themselves.
      - pron 6y ago
        The support license was changed to a subscription model that lowered prices after 7 and 8 were out of the ~5-year free public updates period. Companies wishing to stay on old versions and buy support for them pay less than they did or expected to before the change.
        blinkingled 6y ago
        https://www.oracle.com/assets/java-se-subscription-pricelist-5028356.pdf https://www.oracle.com/assets/java-se-subscription-pricelist... Well with per core licensing combined with monthly subscriptions it's not that cut and dry that you will pay less. I can't remember what we paid for Sun Java in licensing but it wasn't per core.
        pron 6y ago
        Java 7 required payment for support for four years before the license change [1]: > The price is $25 per month per processor for servers and cloud instances, with volume discounts available. ... The previous pricing for the Java SE Advanced program cost $5,000 for a license for each server processor plus a $1,100 annual support fee per server processor, as well as $110 one-time license fee per named user and a $22 annual support fee per named user (each processor has a ten-user minimum). So from (1,100 + 22 * 10) per year per processor + (5,000 + 110 * 10), the cost went down to $300 per processor per year (no one-time fee, no per-user license). That's a >4x drop in price (of course, there were, and are, various bulk discounts, but it's a big price reduction nonetheless). [1]: https://www.infoworld.com/article/3284164/oracle-now-requires-a-subscription-to-use-java-se.html https://www.infoworld.com/article/3284164/oracle-now-require...
- 0x0 6y ago
  That's nice, but they also completely changed the license for java 8 in a minor security update late in the game, making it super easy to accidentally click through and putting yourself or your organization at risk of massive license violations. A trojan horse if I ever saw one.
  - pron 6y ago
    That's not true. After ~5 years, and a notice given a year in advance, every JDK moves out of free public updates and into extended support, which is now cheaper, too.
- willvarfar 6y ago
  I remember wanting to connect to a jvm with a profiler and getting a license agreement as that is now an enterprise feature and costs. It’s a slippery slope.
  - pron 6y ago
    There are no more paid features since JDK 11. That low-overhead profiler is now free and open. For the first time in Java's history, the JDK is 100% free.
    - Tostino 6y ago
      And I love you guys for it, I've used it quite often and appreciate what Oracle have done... their bad reputation somewhat precedes the good that they have done in that team.
- fgonzag 6y ago
  I think he means the part where you have to pay to use JDKs older than 6 months, which means basically everyone has to pay.
  - pulse7 6y ago
    You don't "have to pay to use JDKs older than 6 months". You can "use JDKs older than 6 months", but you need to pay for updates for it!
  - Spinfusor 6y ago
    Not true. You can use the OpenJDK for free until the end of time. If you want ongoing updates beyond six months, there are a bunch of free distributions: Azul Zulu Community (7/8/11/13/14), AdoptOpenJDK (8/11/14), etc.
    - fgonzag 6y ago
      The whole subject is about Oracle's JDKs here, and that's a very recent development too.
      - deleted 6y ago
        [deleted]
      - pron 6y ago
        Oracle distributes two JDKs: one for support customers and one 100% free, forever: http://jdk.java.net/ http://jdk.java.net/
  - pron 6y ago
    Well, you need to pay for updates, but even that is inaccurate. Before JDK 9, Java used to have major releases, now it doesn't, and the version name is incremented every six months even though the changes are small. So instead of a major release, that's supported for some years, there's now a steady stream of small, gradual change with free perpetual support. There's also an alternative new, non-gradual upgrade model, and if companies want to use it, they need to pay.

pron 6y ago

> in light of the Oracle licensing situation You mean the licensing situation where Oracle completed open-sourcing the entire JDK and made Java free of field-of-use restrictions for the first time in its history? If you're talking about the JDK builds you download from Oracle, then there are two (each linking to the other): one paid, for support customers, and one 100% free and open-source: http://jdk.java.net/ http://jdk.java.net/

blinkingled 6y ago
Many organizations need to have supported 1.7 and 1.8 releases and it's a lot of money to spend on per core licensing which is a new thing after Oracle took over. The link you posted do not have free updated binaries for JDK 7 or 8. For those you have to pay. A lot. So it makes sense to look for non Oracle JDK and along with OpenJDK, OpenJ9 is a great choice.
- pron 6y ago
  First, what do you mean by "after Oracle took over"? JDK 7 and 8 were released by Oracle (6 was the last one under Sun). Second, you always had to pay for the JDK after ~5 years of free public updates, and the price now is lower than before. Finally, OpenJDK is the name of Oracle's one and only Java implementation project, with contributions from other companies; OpenJ9 is, indeed, a completely separate project by IBM, but ~80% of that JDK is copied from OpenJDK. And those paid support subscriptions? They fund most of OpenJDK's development.
  - blinkingled 6y ago
    Not sure what you're getting defensive about - the Oracle JDK licensing change was a recent thing than JDK 7 or 8 release dates. And the per core licensing isn't cheap. So that gets companies to seek cheaper alternatives. What is there to argue about? It's a fact that Oracle changed licensing on JDK 7 and 8 they admit that themselves.
    - pron 6y ago
      The support license was changed to a subscription model that lowered prices after 7 and 8 were out of the ~5-year free public updates period. Companies wishing to stay on old versions and buy support for them pay less than they did or expected to before the change.
      - blinkingled 6y ago
        https://www.oracle.com/assets/java-se-subscription-pricelist-5028356.pdf https://www.oracle.com/assets/java-se-subscription-pricelist... Well with per core licensing combined with monthly subscriptions it's not that cut and dry that you will pay less. I can't remember what we paid for Sun Java in licensing but it wasn't per core.
        pron 6y ago
        Java 7 required payment for support for four years before the license change [1]: > The price is $25 per month per processor for servers and cloud instances, with volume discounts available. ... The previous pricing for the Java SE Advanced program cost $5,000 for a license for each server processor plus a $1,100 annual support fee per server processor, as well as $110 one-time license fee per named user and a $22 annual support fee per named user (each processor has a ten-user minimum). So from (1,100 + 22 * 10) per year per processor + (5,000 + 110 * 10), the cost went down to $300 per processor per year (no one-time fee, no per-user license). That's a >4x drop in price (of course, there were, and are, various bulk discounts, but it's a big price reduction nonetheless). [1]: https://www.infoworld.com/article/3284164/oracle-now-requires-a-subscription-to-use-java-se.html https://www.infoworld.com/article/3284164/oracle-now-require...
0x0 6y ago
That's nice, but they also completely changed the license for java 8 in a minor security update late in the game, making it super easy to accidentally click through and putting yourself or your organization at risk of massive license violations. A trojan horse if I ever saw one.
- pron 6y ago
  That's not true. After ~5 years, and a notice given a year in advance, every JDK moves out of free public updates and into extended support, which is now cheaper, too.
willvarfar 6y ago
I remember wanting to connect to a jvm with a profiler and getting a license agreement as that is now an enterprise feature and costs. It’s a slippery slope.
- pron 6y ago
  There are no more paid features since JDK 11. That low-overhead profiler is now free and open. For the first time in Java's history, the JDK is 100% free.
  - Tostino 6y ago
    And I love you guys for it, I've used it quite often and appreciate what Oracle have done... their bad reputation somewhat precedes the good that they have done in that team.
fgonzag 6y ago
I think he means the part where you have to pay to use JDKs older than 6 months, which means basically everyone has to pay.
- pulse7 6y ago
  You don't "have to pay to use JDKs older than 6 months". You can "use JDKs older than 6 months", but you need to pay for updates for it!
- Spinfusor 6y ago
  Not true. You can use the OpenJDK for free until the end of time. If you want ongoing updates beyond six months, there are a bunch of free distributions: Azul Zulu Community (7/8/11/13/14), AdoptOpenJDK (8/11/14), etc.
  - fgonzag 6y ago
    The whole subject is about Oracle's JDKs here, and that's a very recent development too.
    - deleted 6y ago
      [deleted]
    - pron 6y ago
      Oracle distributes two JDKs: one for support customers and one 100% free, forever: http://jdk.java.net/ http://jdk.java.net/
- pron 6y ago
  Well, you need to pay for updates, but even that is inaccurate. Before JDK 9, Java used to have major releases, now it doesn't, and the version name is incremented every six months even though the changes are small. So instead of a major release, that's supported for some years, there's now a steady stream of small, gradual change with free perpetual support. There's also an alternative new, non-gradual upgrade model, and if companies want to use it, they need to pay.