7 ms·

Nest Aware

11 points by hsnewman 6y ago

herodotus 6y ago
I would never pay anyone to spy on me 24 hours a day.
- Nursie 6y ago
  Lots of people do pay private security and alarm firms to keep an eye on things. It's true that's generally not inside the home, and for most people it's unlikely to be video footage stored off-site. I'm not sure how I feel about this, we have one nest cam that covers our entrance hallway, and it's off while we're in the house. I like being able to see what's happened while we're away (oh look, the cat came in...) but the privacy aspect is a little worrying. I guess I could get a generic camera and stream to my NAS, using "motion" to detect motion and then back up to the cloud... but that's non-trivial.
  - _curious_ 6y ago
    "it's off while we're in the house." Are you sure about that?
    - Nursie 6y ago
      Yeah, I'd be able to see it using the network if it were streaming video, as I can when it's on. If you mean "it might be listening! How do you know!" in the generic, fear-y sense then we can have that conversation about any network connected device you care to mention.
      - _curious_ 6y ago
        "then we can have that conversation about any network connected device you care to mention." Agreed in that all devices are susceptible to 'listening' at any time without your direction or knowledge.
  - castillar76 6y ago
    One way to ensure it's off when you're in the house: physically turn it off at the mains. :) I have one of these cameras as well, and I just flip off that outlet when we're home for extended periods (it's been off for weeks now thanks to quarantine). Since I've put up some smart-switch stuff, I could plug it into a smart-switch that automatically flips it back on when we leave...but that gets back into the "how do you really know it's off" territory, I guess.
    - Nursie 6y ago
      I could, but then you can guarantee we won't switch it back on the day we get burgled. If I don't trust the "on when it says it is" feature, I should probably just get rid of it.
- A4ET8a8uTh0 6y ago
  Horrifying. My neighbor just installed one of those simple to use cameras in their windows looking at their driveway and our home. The old country had some basic privacy laws, but here I can't do much about it apart from installing blinds. What is this fascination with recording everything at all times?
  - jfoster 6y ago
    In the case of Tesla, Sentry Mode has actually led to plenty of vandals being caught. So there is a tangible upside there, and as far as I know there hasn't been any tangible downside of Sentry Mode. I'm not saying everything needs to always be recorded, but for security it is clear that it can lead to favourable outcomes for the party that wants the security.
    - A4ET8a8uTh0 6y ago
      I understand the appeal, but I can't accept the siren song. Frankly, my security model involves living in suburbs. Seriously, how much security do you need and at which point is it too invasive?
      - cameronfraser 6y ago
        You're fighting against a strong current. Mass video surveillance is inevitable and people are welcoming it with open arms. I highly doubt that lawmakers will legislate that people cannot record video of another persons property as a side effect of trying to record their own. At best they may start offering features that blurs out video beyond your property lines (technically possible, but difficult and would require some setup beforehand), however part of the selling point of the doorbell cameras for example is they're catching crimes on other people's property as well as your own.
  - ssully 6y ago
    I think most people get them as a deterrent to break ins, not to spy on their neighbors. At least thats why I have one. I had my house robbed a few years back, which was actually horrifying. Insurance covered all the valuables, but the stuff that hurts is what can't be replaced like things from loved ones who are gone. Also your sense of security gets tarnished after something like that. I still wake up in the middle of the night sure that I hear people moving/talking in my house. Having a camera (and dogs, and just giving myself time to wake up and think things through) helps bring me back down to earth in those moments.
Tepix 6y ago
The company that is gathering the most data about you online is now also an expert on observing people through audio and video surveillance. Not a pleasant thought.
sahaskatta 6y ago
It was frustrating to discover that Google is pushing everyone to migrate from a Nest Account to Google Account without offering a path to migrate for paying G Suite customers. Any companies that have Nest cameras + G Suite for employees are out of luck.
- Nursie 6y ago
  Yeah I noticed that, I've been using "Google for domains" or whatever they call it now for about a decade. I snuck in when it was free, but I do pay for extra storage and the nest subscription. The account migration stuff is just confusing - "You must log in with your google account!" "No, not that google account, you can't use that!"
  - BrandonSmith 6y ago
    I have to figure the underlying reason is that Google can't trust that you, the user, own that Google Account as it actually owned by the entity that owns the GSuite organization. They are treating all GSuite users as transient in order for controls to be set up for what happens to user data when they leave the organization. Of course, for you and me and hundreds of thousands of other who use a grandfathered GSuite, the user and entity are the same person. Thus, for services that potentially have some limiting reason to not allow GSuite users to access, we hare orphaned for the time being. I've been waiting FOREVER to either add a family member to my Play Music subscription, or me to theirs. Alas, neither plain Google Account nor GSuite account can co-exist. There are dozens of other Google services incompatible with GSuite users. It is frustrating.
    - sahaskatta 6y ago
      Even if you set aside those legacy G Suite accounts, this is still also a problem for any business on a current paid plan. Nest even advertises their products to businesses here: https://nest.com/nest-for-business/ https://nest.com/nest-for-business/ However, they fail to tell you that your company will be unable to use it with G Suite. There's nothing the administrator of the G Suite account can do either.
jellicle 6y ago
Before you install cloud-recording cameras in your home, especially from a major company which the police will check first, be AWARE that local and federal law enforcement can simply request your data from Google, no judicial search warrant required (as Google has no privacy interest in your data, and you have no privacy interest in data you voluntarily hand over to third parties such as Google, according to the US Supreme Court). Basically a letter on law enforcement stationery will do: "We need access to all video, on an ongoing basis, from 123 Elm St., as it may be relevant to an ongoing investigation." Done. Some people may be fine with this but many should think carefully.
- remmargorp64 6y ago
  Where do you get the idea that Nest/Google will simply hand over video from users without an actual warrant? That's not what I'm reading/interpreting from the information here: https://nest.com/legal/transparency-report/ https://nest.com/legal/transparency-report/
  - jellicle 6y ago
    Where do you get the idea that a search warrant is required to get a third-party to hand over data about you? https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Third-party_doctrine https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Third-party_doctrine And no, there's nothing on that nest.com page that says otherwise.
nova22033 6y ago
Is this an ad? What's "hacker news"worthy about this?
cameronfraser 6y ago
Nest makes too many decisions for their users that I disagree with. Not sure if other camera companies do this, but they used to give users the option to show a light or not on the camera and they since then have forced all Nest cameras to show the light, if someone is breaking into my house I would rather they didn't know where the cameras were so the camera could get a good look at their face. Secondly during COVID they just forcibly reduced the quality of the stream.
- remmargorp64 6y ago
  The light problem is solved very easily, by the way. Just use a small piece of black electrical tape to cover the LED.

Nest Aware

11 points by hsnewman 6y ago

herodotus 6y ago

I would never pay anyone to spy on me 24 hours a day.

Nursie 6y ago
Lots of people do pay private security and alarm firms to keep an eye on things. It's true that's generally not inside the home, and for most people it's unlikely to be video footage stored off-site. I'm not sure how I feel about this, we have one nest cam that covers our entrance hallway, and it's off while we're in the house. I like being able to see what's happened while we're away (oh look, the cat came in...) but the privacy aspect is a little worrying. I guess I could get a generic camera and stream to my NAS, using "motion" to detect motion and then back up to the cloud... but that's non-trivial.
- _curious_ 6y ago
  "it's off while we're in the house." Are you sure about that?
  - Nursie 6y ago
    Yeah, I'd be able to see it using the network if it were streaming video, as I can when it's on. If you mean "it might be listening! How do you know!" in the generic, fear-y sense then we can have that conversation about any network connected device you care to mention.
    - _curious_ 6y ago
      "then we can have that conversation about any network connected device you care to mention." Agreed in that all devices are susceptible to 'listening' at any time without your direction or knowledge.
- castillar76 6y ago
  One way to ensure it's off when you're in the house: physically turn it off at the mains. :) I have one of these cameras as well, and I just flip off that outlet when we're home for extended periods (it's been off for weeks now thanks to quarantine). Since I've put up some smart-switch stuff, I could plug it into a smart-switch that automatically flips it back on when we leave...but that gets back into the "how do you really know it's off" territory, I guess.
  - Nursie 6y ago
    I could, but then you can guarantee we won't switch it back on the day we get burgled. If I don't trust the "on when it says it is" feature, I should probably just get rid of it.
A4ET8a8uTh0 6y ago
Horrifying. My neighbor just installed one of those simple to use cameras in their windows looking at their driveway and our home. The old country had some basic privacy laws, but here I can't do much about it apart from installing blinds. What is this fascination with recording everything at all times?
- jfoster 6y ago
  In the case of Tesla, Sentry Mode has actually led to plenty of vandals being caught. So there is a tangible upside there, and as far as I know there hasn't been any tangible downside of Sentry Mode. I'm not saying everything needs to always be recorded, but for security it is clear that it can lead to favourable outcomes for the party that wants the security.
  - A4ET8a8uTh0 6y ago
    I understand the appeal, but I can't accept the siren song. Frankly, my security model involves living in suburbs. Seriously, how much security do you need and at which point is it too invasive?
    - cameronfraser 6y ago
      You're fighting against a strong current. Mass video surveillance is inevitable and people are welcoming it with open arms. I highly doubt that lawmakers will legislate that people cannot record video of another persons property as a side effect of trying to record their own. At best they may start offering features that blurs out video beyond your property lines (technically possible, but difficult and would require some setup beforehand), however part of the selling point of the doorbell cameras for example is they're catching crimes on other people's property as well as your own.
- ssully 6y ago
  I think most people get them as a deterrent to break ins, not to spy on their neighbors. At least thats why I have one. I had my house robbed a few years back, which was actually horrifying. Insurance covered all the valuables, but the stuff that hurts is what can't be replaced like things from loved ones who are gone. Also your sense of security gets tarnished after something like that. I still wake up in the middle of the night sure that I hear people moving/talking in my house. Having a camera (and dogs, and just giving myself time to wake up and think things through) helps bring me back down to earth in those moments.

Tepix 6y ago

The company that is gathering the most data about you online is now also an expert on observing people through audio and video surveillance. Not a pleasant thought.

sahaskatta 6y ago

It was frustrating to discover that Google is pushing everyone to migrate from a Nest Account to Google Account without offering a path to migrate for paying G Suite customers. Any companies that have Nest cameras + G Suite for employees are out of luck.

Nursie 6y ago
Yeah I noticed that, I've been using "Google for domains" or whatever they call it now for about a decade. I snuck in when it was free, but I do pay for extra storage and the nest subscription. The account migration stuff is just confusing - "You must log in with your google account!" "No, not that google account, you can't use that!"
- BrandonSmith 6y ago
  I have to figure the underlying reason is that Google can't trust that you, the user, own that Google Account as it actually owned by the entity that owns the GSuite organization. They are treating all GSuite users as transient in order for controls to be set up for what happens to user data when they leave the organization. Of course, for you and me and hundreds of thousands of other who use a grandfathered GSuite, the user and entity are the same person. Thus, for services that potentially have some limiting reason to not allow GSuite users to access, we hare orphaned for the time being. I've been waiting FOREVER to either add a family member to my Play Music subscription, or me to theirs. Alas, neither plain Google Account nor GSuite account can co-exist. There are dozens of other Google services incompatible with GSuite users. It is frustrating.
  - sahaskatta 6y ago
    Even if you set aside those legacy G Suite accounts, this is still also a problem for any business on a current paid plan. Nest even advertises their products to businesses here: https://nest.com/nest-for-business/ https://nest.com/nest-for-business/ However, they fail to tell you that your company will be unable to use it with G Suite. There's nothing the administrator of the G Suite account can do either.

jellicle 6y ago

Before you install cloud-recording cameras in your home, especially from a major company which the police will check first, be AWARE that local and federal law enforcement can simply request your data from Google, no judicial search warrant required (as Google has no privacy interest in your data, and you have no privacy interest in data you voluntarily hand over to third parties such as Google, according to the US Supreme Court). Basically a letter on law enforcement stationery will do: "We need access to all video, on an ongoing basis, from 123 Elm St., as it may be relevant to an ongoing investigation." Done. Some people may be fine with this but many should think carefully.

remmargorp64 6y ago
Where do you get the idea that Nest/Google will simply hand over video from users without an actual warrant? That's not what I'm reading/interpreting from the information here: https://nest.com/legal/transparency-report/ https://nest.com/legal/transparency-report/
- jellicle 6y ago
  Where do you get the idea that a search warrant is required to get a third-party to hand over data about you? https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Third-party_doctrine https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Third-party_doctrine And no, there's nothing on that nest.com page that says otherwise.

nova22033 6y ago

Is this an ad? What's "hacker news"worthy about this?

cameronfraser 6y ago

Nest makes too many decisions for their users that I disagree with. Not sure if other camera companies do this, but they used to give users the option to show a light or not on the camera and they since then have forced all Nest cameras to show the light, if someone is breaking into my house I would rather they didn't know where the cameras were so the camera could get a good look at their face. Secondly during COVID they just forcibly reduced the quality of the stream.

remmargorp64 6y ago
The light problem is solved very easily, by the way. Just use a small piece of black electrical tape to cover the LED.