7 ms·

YC Is Not a School for Startups; It's Marine Corps Boot Camp for Founders

106 points by iamwil 16y ago

velshin 16y ago
Please stop the hate and look past the Marine Corp analogy. This post described the stresses of early startup life very well, and was entertaining to read. To anyone just dropping in on this, skip the HN comments and read the post.
rhizome 16y ago
"Marine Corp," eh?
- dctoedt 16y ago
  I suspect that if the OP had actually gone through Parris Island or San Diego, the friendly on-site staff would have helped him remember how to spell it correctly.
damoncali 16y ago
Actually, the difference between the two is enormous.
pekinb 16y ago
Headlines like this are one of the dangers of our little HN niche.
- deleted 16y ago
  [deleted]
- mattdeboard 16y ago
  Reminds me of the "It's like X, for Y!" startup-description snowclone.
- cabinguy 16y ago
  Exactly. I had a comment ready to go but I didn't want to get too negative on the OP so I deleted it. He forgets that kids his age will die this week doing what his fantasy analogies describe. As someone who served 4 years in the military, I found parts of this post offensive.
tedjdziuba 16y ago
I applied to YC and at one point during the pitch, pg said to me, in his best R. Lee Ermey, Full Metal Jacket voice, "Hell, I like you. You can come over to my house and fuck my sister!" True story.
- helwr 16y ago
  you made my day
simonw 16y ago
Don't be distracted by the Marine Corp analogy. This is a really accurate description of what it feels like to do YC.
- rhizome 16y ago
  The description makes me think I'm trying too hard at this stuff. What does an investor think when they see words assembled in this way? I'm not bagging on this guy specifically, but this article/description is below-average writing even for a high-school dropout. I'm not trying to quibble on semantics or be a grammar-nazi, though I'm sure I'm doing both, but it's long, vague, jumpy, and plain hard to read.
  - earbitscom 16y ago
    Do you mean investors like Dave McClure who write in all lower case? Or investors like Matt Coffin, who writes his "you" with a u, even in public posts? Just trying to get a little clarification here. And, to answer your question, more than a dozen investors have thought, "Let me sign this convertible note."
    - rhizome 16y ago
      It just sounds like a muddled thought process to me. Sorry man, nothing personal, it was actually a self-deprecating comment. You don't have to wave your checkbook around about it.
    - ascendant 16y ago
      Just because they're investors doesn't mean they're off the hook for writing like crap. Having a lot of money isn't a free pass for mangling the English language.
      - davemc500hats 16y ago
        neither does it mean they're awesome if they use perfect punctuation and grammar. some optimize for speed & utility... others optimize for look & feel. neither is necessarily correct, just different.
fleitz 16y ago
Does this mean that you can apply and fail as many times as you want but if you quit then you're done for life? This is how the Marnie Corps Officer Training program works.
pclark 16y ago
Warfighting by the US Marine Corp is actually a very great book for entrepreneurs to read: http://www.dtic.mil/doctrine/jel/service_pubs/mcdp1.pdf http://www.dtic.mil/doctrine/jel/service_pubs/mcdp1.pdf
znt 16y ago
So, I've actually gone through the local version of Marine Corps training with the 'crawling on your belly through mud with bullets whizzing over your head' part and served near North Iraq for 9 months as a squad leader. It was basically hard like hell and fainting teammates due to exhaustion wasn't unusual during basic training. Should I include this experience to my application form if I ever decide to apply to YCombinator?
- earbitscom 16y ago
  Absolutely.
- mindcrime 16y ago
  Cool. I never did quite that, but I was a volunteer firefighter and a firefighter instructor who literally crawled on my belly in smoke-filled buildings, with a fire burning inside, with nothing but a flashlight and a 2" hoseline, and with flashover a possiblity at any moment... and I trained guys to do LP gas firefighting where the simulator generated so much heat that guys routinely found their helmets partially melted after a training drill. Wonder if I should put any of that stuff on my YC application?
  - kovar 16y ago
    The trick is finding an effective way to include this in your story. YC isn't, or shouldn't, be your only incubator option and others will require you to communicate your story with very few words. (And just because YC doesn't require it doesn't mean that you shouldn't keep it in mind.) I run an international SAR team (www.1srg.org) and kept forgetting that it was a startup. I've been trying to include that experience while not adding too many words. The resulting story is much tighter, and hopefully more compelling. Invest in good prose....
    - mindcrime 16y ago
      Good point. And that's something I'm not terribly good at yet. I tend to use too many words when communicating. I need to learn to tighten things up a bit. :-(
earbitscom 16y ago
To clarify, this was intended to imply that YC is more stressful and intense than any schooling I have ever seen. So, it seemed more akin to training for "life and death" situations. And, since you're training with the best of the best young founders, it's simply a compliment to the Marines. Take it or leave it.
- pvg 16y ago
  Really, a compliment to the Marines? You've decided to go from 'somewhat obliviously-overwrought metaphor' to 'self-absorbed foot-in-the-mouth'?
- onan_barbarian 16y ago
  I bet you're the kind of guy that would fuck a person in the ass and not even have the goddamn common courtesy to give him a reach-around. I'll be watching you.
- cabinguy 16y ago
  I don't want to keep piling on but it seems like you still don't get it. One of the reasons your post got such a negative response is because you are comparing yourself to people who put themselves in harms way for your benefit. There is a difference between having your startup fail and actually being shot in the f'ing face by a high powered rifle. And you even ripped on the Marines that may have joined as a way to pay for college, as if they are beneath you and your peers. Do not compare yourself to real soldiers (or sailors), there is no comparison. Just accept it and move on.
  - earbitscom 16y ago
    Not to keep piling it on, but when someone says "this is the Cadillac of sandwiches," do you say "Cadillac was founded in 1902 and employs tens of thousands of hard working Americans. How dare you?!" People call YC a school for startups. I used a metaphor that implied it's far harder than school, and that the people in it are among the best you can hope to be working alongside. It's a metaphor and meant to be both a compliment to YC, and to the Marines. It doesn't make me comparable to a Marine, just like it doesn't make tuna on rye a car.
delineal 16y ago
In my experience, any job or any company you start can be exactly as described. If you allow yourself to take on responsibility and then own that responsibility, your life will tend to be dominated by a sense of obligation to that responsibility. There are always highs and lows in any pursuit. When the times get rough, you just have to put on your best smile and do whatever needs doing. There's no point in complaining; you made the choice to be where you are.
harscoat 16y ago
I love that "Esprit de Corps/Sparta" Mystic (after graduating I joined 5 years the Paris Fire Brigade, my parents/friends thinkin WTFF!). Even though ones can keep in mind that it's a training methodology (for the days you are about to sob like a little boy due to sheer, to the bones exhaustion), it produces great results: * It aligns everything you have (any cells, not just neurons) towards one clear goal "Fulfill la mission sacré (or die;)" (as to speak in Foreign Legion language); for me "relentlessly ressourceful" is that rustic légionnaire mentality (no big logistic ressources at the Legion) "no excuses", "Marche ou crève", you gotta find a way and you are not scared to violently execute ("getting ones fingers out of his a." Pardon my french). You learn so much more just because of the intensity (things stick in your brain, are tattooed in your body once for all). You receive very tough feedback which is what we need as we are too much in love with our ideas. You are able to say "screw that", pivot radically throw all what you build away to start afresh, or say no without blinking ("Ca me fera pas un 2ème trou au c.l"). You make friends like rarely one can make (that network becomes a fantastic ressource when you need help now!/yesterday). Finally because of that harsh training, the skin you have put into it, you can go extra 10 miles nobody would have ever believed one could (eg. Airbnb crazy story: they did not give up! That's also why imo YC looks for never giving up on the mission Determination: to get the maximum run for their investment). Congrats to PG for forging that mystic that YC "Esprit de Corps": makes business sense, but sure must be a unforgettable defining experience.
bootload 16y ago
"... Like war, everything in startups is life or death ..." I appreciate the enthusiasm & romanticism of the story, but don't for a minute confuse working in a Startup and a real "life & death" situation. Things have to be done perfectly, freeze, screw up or make a mistake and you end up with a corpse instead of a person. Why not say it, "as it is" - a relatively safe, exciting creative job where you get to make your own decisions, create things, have fun and maybe make some money.
- deleted 16y ago
  [deleted]
nzmsv 16y ago
On an unrelated note, apparently I missed the Earbits post a few days ago, so I thought I'd check it out. First thing it told me was: WTF? You need Adobe Flash to stream music... We thought you knew this, but apparently you need reminding. That's a little too "bootcamp", isn't it?
Keyframe 16y ago
...or more like MLM bootcamp.
hncommenter13 16y ago
"This is my rifle. There are many like it, but this one is mine. My rifle is my best friend. It is my life. I must master it as I must master my life. My rifle, without me, is useless. Without my rifle, I am useless. I must fire my rifle true. I must shoot straighter than my enemy who is trying to kill me. I must shoot him before he shoots me. I will... My rifle and myself know that what counts in this war is not the rounds we fire, the noise of our burst, nor the smoke we make. We know that it is the hits that count. We will hit... My rifle is human, even as I, because it is my life. Thus, I will learn it as a brother. I will learn its weaknesses, its strength, its parts, its accessories, its sights and its barrel. I will ever guard it against the ravages of weather and damage as I will ever guard my legs, my arms, my eyes and my heart against damage. I will keep my rifle clean and ready. We will become part of each other. We will... Before God, I swear this creed. My rifle and myself are the defenders of my country. We are the masters of our enemy. We are the saviors of my life. So be it, until victory is America's and there is no enemy, but peace!" http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Rifleman%27s_Creed http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Rifleman%27s_Creed YC is great, but reading this should make it clear that nothing in startup land is remotely comparable.
acconrad 16y ago
My dad was a Marine Corps sniper in Vietnam. I'm pretty sure you won't get PTSD from doing YC.
- ChrisCooper 16y ago
  He said "boot camp", not active service. My best wishes to your dad.

106 points by iamwil 16y ago

Please stop the hate and look past the Marine Corp analogy. This post described the stresses of early startup life very well, and was entertaining to read. To anyone just dropping in on this, skip the HN comments and read the post.

rhizome 16y ago

"Marine Corp," eh?

dctoedt 16y ago
I suspect that if the OP had actually gone through Parris Island or San Diego, the friendly on-site staff would have helped him remember how to spell it correctly.

damoncali 16y ago

Actually, the difference between the two is enormous.

pekinb 16y ago

Headlines like this are one of the dangers of our little HN niche.

deleted 16y ago
[deleted]
mattdeboard 16y ago
Reminds me of the "It's like X, for Y!" startup-description snowclone.
cabinguy 16y ago
Exactly. I had a comment ready to go but I didn't want to get too negative on the OP so I deleted it. He forgets that kids his age will die this week doing what his fantasy analogies describe. As someone who served 4 years in the military, I found parts of this post offensive.

tedjdziuba 16y ago

I applied to YC and at one point during the pitch, pg said to me, in his best R. Lee Ermey, Full Metal Jacket voice, "Hell, I like you. You can come over to my house and fuck my sister!" True story.

helwr 16y ago
you made my day

simonw 16y ago

Don't be distracted by the Marine Corp analogy. This is a really accurate description of what it feels like to do YC.

rhizome 16y ago
The description makes me think I'm trying too hard at this stuff. What does an investor think when they see words assembled in this way? I'm not bagging on this guy specifically, but this article/description is below-average writing even for a high-school dropout. I'm not trying to quibble on semantics or be a grammar-nazi, though I'm sure I'm doing both, but it's long, vague, jumpy, and plain hard to read.
- earbitscom 16y ago
  Do you mean investors like Dave McClure who write in all lower case? Or investors like Matt Coffin, who writes his "you" with a u, even in public posts? Just trying to get a little clarification here. And, to answer your question, more than a dozen investors have thought, "Let me sign this convertible note."
  - rhizome 16y ago
    It just sounds like a muddled thought process to me. Sorry man, nothing personal, it was actually a self-deprecating comment. You don't have to wave your checkbook around about it.
  - ascendant 16y ago
    Just because they're investors doesn't mean they're off the hook for writing like crap. Having a lot of money isn't a free pass for mangling the English language.
    - davemc500hats 16y ago
      neither does it mean they're awesome if they use perfect punctuation and grammar. some optimize for speed & utility... others optimize for look & feel. neither is necessarily correct, just different.

fleitz 16y ago

Does this mean that you can apply and fail as many times as you want but if you quit then you're done for life? This is how the Marnie Corps Officer Training program works.

pclark 16y ago

Warfighting by the US Marine Corp is actually a very great book for entrepreneurs to read: http://www.dtic.mil/doctrine/jel/service_pubs/mcdp1.pdf http://www.dtic.mil/doctrine/jel/service_pubs/mcdp1.pdf

znt 16y ago

So, I've actually gone through the local version of Marine Corps training with the 'crawling on your belly through mud with bullets whizzing over your head' part and served near North Iraq for 9 months as a squad leader. It was basically hard like hell and fainting teammates due to exhaustion wasn't unusual during basic training. Should I include this experience to my application form if I ever decide to apply to YCombinator?

earbitscom 16y ago
Absolutely.
mindcrime 16y ago
Cool. I never did quite that, but I was a volunteer firefighter and a firefighter instructor who literally crawled on my belly in smoke-filled buildings, with a fire burning inside, with nothing but a flashlight and a 2" hoseline, and with flashover a possiblity at any moment... and I trained guys to do LP gas firefighting where the simulator generated so much heat that guys routinely found their helmets partially melted after a training drill. Wonder if I should put any of that stuff on my YC application?
- kovar 16y ago
  The trick is finding an effective way to include this in your story. YC isn't, or shouldn't, be your only incubator option and others will require you to communicate your story with very few words. (And just because YC doesn't require it doesn't mean that you shouldn't keep it in mind.) I run an international SAR team (www.1srg.org) and kept forgetting that it was a startup. I've been trying to include that experience while not adding too many words. The resulting story is much tighter, and hopefully more compelling. Invest in good prose....
  - mindcrime 16y ago
    Good point. And that's something I'm not terribly good at yet. I tend to use too many words when communicating. I need to learn to tighten things up a bit. :-(

earbitscom 16y ago

To clarify, this was intended to imply that YC is more stressful and intense than any schooling I have ever seen. So, it seemed more akin to training for "life and death" situations. And, since you're training with the best of the best young founders, it's simply a compliment to the Marines. Take it or leave it.

pvg 16y ago
Really, a compliment to the Marines? You've decided to go from 'somewhat obliviously-overwrought metaphor' to 'self-absorbed foot-in-the-mouth'?
onan_barbarian 16y ago
I bet you're the kind of guy that would fuck a person in the ass and not even have the goddamn common courtesy to give him a reach-around. I'll be watching you.
cabinguy 16y ago
I don't want to keep piling on but it seems like you still don't get it. One of the reasons your post got such a negative response is because you are comparing yourself to people who put themselves in harms way for your benefit. There is a difference between having your startup fail and actually being shot in the f'ing face by a high powered rifle. And you even ripped on the Marines that may have joined as a way to pay for college, as if they are beneath you and your peers. Do not compare yourself to real soldiers (or sailors), there is no comparison. Just accept it and move on.
- earbitscom 16y ago
  Not to keep piling it on, but when someone says "this is the Cadillac of sandwiches," do you say "Cadillac was founded in 1902 and employs tens of thousands of hard working Americans. How dare you?!" People call YC a school for startups. I used a metaphor that implied it's far harder than school, and that the people in it are among the best you can hope to be working alongside. It's a metaphor and meant to be both a compliment to YC, and to the Marines. It doesn't make me comparable to a Marine, just like it doesn't make tuna on rye a car.

delineal 16y ago

In my experience, any job or any company you start can be exactly as described. If you allow yourself to take on responsibility and then own that responsibility, your life will tend to be dominated by a sense of obligation to that responsibility. There are always highs and lows in any pursuit. When the times get rough, you just have to put on your best smile and do whatever needs doing. There's no point in complaining; you made the choice to be where you are.

harscoat 16y ago

I love that "Esprit de Corps/Sparta" Mystic (after graduating I joined 5 years the Paris Fire Brigade, my parents/friends thinkin WTFF!). Even though ones can keep in mind that it's a training methodology (for the days you are about to sob like a little boy due to sheer, to the bones exhaustion), it produces great results: * It aligns everything you have (any cells, not just neurons) towards one clear goal "Fulfill la mission sacré (or die;)" (as to speak in Foreign Legion language); for me "relentlessly ressourceful" is that rustic légionnaire mentality (no big logistic ressources at the Legion) "no excuses", "Marche ou crève", you gotta find a way and you are not scared to violently execute ("getting ones fingers out of his a." Pardon my french). You learn so much more just because of the intensity (things stick in your brain, are tattooed in your body once for all). You receive very tough feedback which is what we need as we are too much in love with our ideas. You are able to say "screw that", pivot radically throw all what you build away to start afresh, or say no without blinking ("Ca me fera pas un 2ème trou au c.l"). You make friends like rarely one can make (that network becomes a fantastic ressource when you need help now!/yesterday). Finally because of that harsh training, the skin you have put into it, you can go extra 10 miles nobody would have ever believed one could (eg. Airbnb crazy story: they did not give up! That's also why imo YC looks for never giving up on the mission Determination: to get the maximum run for their investment). Congrats to PG for forging that mystic that YC "Esprit de Corps": makes business sense, but sure must be a unforgettable defining experience.

bootload 16y ago

"... Like war, everything in startups is life or death ..." I appreciate the enthusiasm & romanticism of the story, but don't for a minute confuse working in a Startup and a real "life & death" situation. Things have to be done perfectly, freeze, screw up or make a mistake and you end up with a corpse instead of a person. Why not say it, "as it is" - a relatively safe, exciting creative job where you get to make your own decisions, create things, have fun and maybe make some money.

deleted 16y ago
[deleted]

nzmsv 16y ago

On an unrelated note, apparently I missed the Earbits post a few days ago, so I thought I'd check it out. First thing it told me was: WTF? You need Adobe Flash to stream music... We thought you knew this, but apparently you need reminding. That's a little too "bootcamp", isn't it?

Keyframe 16y ago

...or more like MLM bootcamp.

hncommenter13 16y ago

"This is my rifle. There are many like it, but this one is mine. My rifle is my best friend. It is my life. I must master it as I must master my life. My rifle, without me, is useless. Without my rifle, I am useless. I must fire my rifle true. I must shoot straighter than my enemy who is trying to kill me. I must shoot him before he shoots me. I will... My rifle and myself know that what counts in this war is not the rounds we fire, the noise of our burst, nor the smoke we make. We know that it is the hits that count. We will hit... My rifle is human, even as I, because it is my life. Thus, I will learn it as a brother. I will learn its weaknesses, its strength, its parts, its accessories, its sights and its barrel. I will ever guard it against the ravages of weather and damage as I will ever guard my legs, my arms, my eyes and my heart against damage. I will keep my rifle clean and ready. We will become part of each other. We will... Before God, I swear this creed. My rifle and myself are the defenders of my country. We are the masters of our enemy. We are the saviors of my life. So be it, until victory is America's and there is no enemy, but peace!" http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Rifleman%27s_Creed http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Rifleman%27s_Creed YC is great, but reading this should make it clear that nothing in startup land is remotely comparable.

acconrad 16y ago

My dad was a Marine Corps sniper in Vietnam. I'm pretty sure you won't get PTSD from doing YC.

ChrisCooper 16y ago
He said "boot camp", not active service. My best wishes to your dad.