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Notably missing: Any hints about hardware for developers. My conspiracy theory is that the sketchily rumored “gaming laptop”[1] is actually a hot rod ARM MacBo

Notably missing: Any hints about hardware for developers. My conspiracy theory is that the sketchily rumored “gaming laptop”[1] is actually a hot rod ARM MacBook focused on developers to get the transition off with a bang. [1] https://www.macrumors.com/2019/12/30/sketchy-rumor-gaming-mac-wwdc-2020/ https://www.macrumors.com/2019/12/30/sketchy-rumor-gaming-ma...

oe 6y ago
Could the new iPad Pro works as a development machine?
- twoodfin 6y ago
  Yes, but that’s so awkward technically and from a marketing / product segmentation perspective that I’d be shocked if Apple went that way. They want to sell this transition as letting them build the best Macs ever. A kitbash iPad, despite its virtues, is definitely not that.
  - oe 6y ago
    I don't mean as a product to sell to the masses but something that could be used to develop / test ARM apps before the new shiny laptop arrives sometime in 2021. Not the most ergonomic way to develop apps but maybe possible?
- pjmlp 6y ago
  It already does, Pythonista, Continuous, Codea, Shaderific, Playgrounds Are enough to keep me busy.
  - messe 6y ago
    Try out code-server[1]. It let's you run VSCode in a web browser. I have a 10$ a month vultr server set up for personal git hosting and running this, and it works great on my iPadPro (as well as my PinebookPro). https://github.com/cdr/code-server https://github.com/cdr/code-server
    - pjmlp 6y ago
      Thanks, but there is already the Azure version of it, where VSCode actually started. https://azure.microsoft.com/en-us/blog/cloudshelleditor/ https://azure.microsoft.com/en-us/blog/cloudshelleditor/
      - mark_l_watson 6y ago
        How well does this run on an iPad Pro? I assume that this is a web app. Does it run OK on iOS Safari? Thanks in advance.
        pjmlp 6y ago
        I never used it, just the apps mentioned above, just wanted to note that there is where VSCode came from. I usually only use tablets when flying, not the ideal place to access Internet (very few Airlines offer that on European flights).
    - dx034 6y ago
      I've said it before but I really love code-server. Recent releases have been a bit messy (change of deployment model didn't really work) but it's amazing. I got it running on a $5 VPS to access my dev environment from any machine without the need to sync anything (no more forgetting to commit code before I leave for a trip). As long as I'm <10ms from the VPS I can't tell any difference between code-server and native VSCode. I really hope their business model is successful.
- grishka 6y ago
  Absolutely, but iOS and its "security" is holding it back.
  - oe 6y ago
    I meant iPad running a version of macOS
MaysonL 6y ago
My conspiracy theory is that there will be a dual-boot iPad Pro + Magic Keyboard combo for a few $K…
- messe 6y ago
  Mightn't even have to dual boot if Hypervisor.framework were ported to ARM.
- tonyedgecombe 6y ago
  I don't know about dual boot but I wouldn't be surprised to see a clamshell iPad.
- _ph_ 6y ago
  If Apple wanted, they could just offer a developer version of macOS for ARM that runs on an iPad Pro. This would completely solve the question of hardware availability for developers. Especially as lots if not most developers already have one of these.
mizaru 6y ago
I'm wondering if this is an unpopular opinion, but I wouldn't want to use anything other than a desktop for development.
- twoodfin 6y ago
  Well, the rumor also mentions a “gaming iMac” which is just as preposterous, so maybe they roll out one of each.
messe 6y ago
That article describes a high-end gaming machine, with a potential pricetag of 5000$. Given that the Intel-based developer transition kit was only 999$, I can't see their developer model being that expensive. For the developer model, perhaps they'll revive the Macbook 2015 form factor with an ARM chip instead, to distinguish it from the Intel-based Airs and Pros.
- twoodfin 6y ago
  The Apple of 2020 is in a very different market position than that of 2006. I also expect that you won’t need this box to do ARM development: Why should ARM macOS development on an existing x64 Mac be any different from ARM iPadOS development there?
  - messe 6y ago
    I mean, ideally it shouldn't. The vast majority of apps should just recompile. But I don't think you can compare them quite like that, remember that the iPad/iPhone emulators on Xcode run x64 code, not ARM. If you're doing anything that depends on architectural features or drops into inline assembly, you're going to need either an ARM emulator on your x64 box (which apple doesn't do right now for iPad/iPhone dev), or an ARM box to test on. Right now for iPad/iPhone development, if you wish to use some assembly you can test it on device.
  - rjsw 6y ago
    It may help that clang/llvm is a cross-compiler by default.
- rbanffy 6y ago
  $999 buys a low-spec MacBook Air and could buy a slightly higher spec ARM-based machine for the same margins. I still think they'd be very constrained. That original PowerMac chassis with a PC inside also won't happen again unless they have a ton of surplus MacPro chassis they need to offload. $999 can buy the MacPro monitor stand...
  - messe 6y ago
bluedino 6y ago
Apple has never been good at gaming.
newsclues 6y ago
Imagine a cheap Apple ARM low power high performance Mac Mini for devs... Apple would never do it, unless as some sort of educational campaign to get a low cost education and coding platform into the hands of billions of kids
CoolGuySteve 6y ago
I guess it depends on the development tool chain, but when I tried compiling some C++ stuff on the AWS ARM instances, I found it was like 50% slower. I suspect it was from some combination of branch prediction and OOO execution being weaker.
- messe 6y ago
  Were you using a1 instances (Graviton) or m6g, and c6g, r6g (Graviton2) instances?
  - CoolGuySteve 6y ago
    a1, this was before Graviton2 was released.

oe 6y ago

Could the new iPad Pro works as a development machine?

twoodfin 6y ago
Yes, but that’s so awkward technically and from a marketing / product segmentation perspective that I’d be shocked if Apple went that way. They want to sell this transition as letting them build the best Macs ever. A kitbash iPad, despite its virtues, is definitely not that.
- oe 6y ago
  I don't mean as a product to sell to the masses but something that could be used to develop / test ARM apps before the new shiny laptop arrives sometime in 2021. Not the most ergonomic way to develop apps but maybe possible?
pjmlp 6y ago
It already does, Pythonista, Continuous, Codea, Shaderific, Playgrounds Are enough to keep me busy.
- messe 6y ago
  Try out code-server[1]. It let's you run VSCode in a web browser. I have a 10$ a month vultr server set up for personal git hosting and running this, and it works great on my iPadPro (as well as my PinebookPro). https://github.com/cdr/code-server https://github.com/cdr/code-server
  - pjmlp 6y ago
    Thanks, but there is already the Azure version of it, where VSCode actually started. https://azure.microsoft.com/en-us/blog/cloudshelleditor/ https://azure.microsoft.com/en-us/blog/cloudshelleditor/
    - mark_l_watson 6y ago
      How well does this run on an iPad Pro? I assume that this is a web app. Does it run OK on iOS Safari? Thanks in advance.
      - pjmlp 6y ago
        I never used it, just the apps mentioned above, just wanted to note that there is where VSCode came from. I usually only use tablets when flying, not the ideal place to access Internet (very few Airlines offer that on European flights).
  - dx034 6y ago
    I've said it before but I really love code-server. Recent releases have been a bit messy (change of deployment model didn't really work) but it's amazing. I got it running on a $5 VPS to access my dev environment from any machine without the need to sync anything (no more forgetting to commit code before I leave for a trip). As long as I'm <10ms from the VPS I can't tell any difference between code-server and native VSCode. I really hope their business model is successful.
grishka 6y ago
Absolutely, but iOS and its "security" is holding it back.
- oe 6y ago
  I meant iPad running a version of macOS

MaysonL 6y ago

My conspiracy theory is that there will be a dual-boot iPad Pro + Magic Keyboard combo for a few $K…

messe 6y ago
Mightn't even have to dual boot if Hypervisor.framework were ported to ARM.
tonyedgecombe 6y ago
I don't know about dual boot but I wouldn't be surprised to see a clamshell iPad.
_ph_ 6y ago
If Apple wanted, they could just offer a developer version of macOS for ARM that runs on an iPad Pro. This would completely solve the question of hardware availability for developers. Especially as lots if not most developers already have one of these.

mizaru 6y ago

I'm wondering if this is an unpopular opinion, but I wouldn't want to use anything other than a desktop for development.

twoodfin 6y ago
Well, the rumor also mentions a “gaming iMac” which is just as preposterous, so maybe they roll out one of each.

messe 6y ago

That article describes a high-end gaming machine, with a potential pricetag of 5000$. Given that the Intel-based developer transition kit was only 999$, I can't see their developer model being that expensive. For the developer model, perhaps they'll revive the Macbook 2015 form factor with an ARM chip instead, to distinguish it from the Intel-based Airs and Pros.

twoodfin 6y ago
The Apple of 2020 is in a very different market position than that of 2006. I also expect that you won’t need this box to do ARM development: Why should ARM macOS development on an existing x64 Mac be any different from ARM iPadOS development there?
- messe 6y ago
  I mean, ideally it shouldn't. The vast majority of apps should just recompile. But I don't think you can compare them quite like that, remember that the iPad/iPhone emulators on Xcode run x64 code, not ARM. If you're doing anything that depends on architectural features or drops into inline assembly, you're going to need either an ARM emulator on your x64 box (which apple doesn't do right now for iPad/iPhone dev), or an ARM box to test on. Right now for iPad/iPhone development, if you wish to use some assembly you can test it on device.
- rjsw 6y ago
  It may help that clang/llvm is a cross-compiler by default.
rbanffy 6y ago
$999 buys a low-spec MacBook Air and could buy a slightly higher spec ARM-based machine for the same margins. I still think they'd be very constrained. That original PowerMac chassis with a PC inside also won't happen again unless they have a ton of surplus MacPro chassis they need to offload. $999 can buy the MacPro monitor stand...
- messe 6y ago

bluedino 6y ago

Apple has never been good at gaming.

newsclues 6y ago

Imagine a cheap Apple ARM low power high performance Mac Mini for devs... Apple would never do it, unless as some sort of educational campaign to get a low cost education and coding platform into the hands of billions of kids

CoolGuySteve 6y ago

I guess it depends on the development tool chain, but when I tried compiling some C++ stuff on the AWS ARM instances, I found it was like 50% slower. I suspect it was from some combination of branch prediction and OOO execution being weaker.

messe 6y ago
Were you using a1 instances (Graviton) or m6g, and c6g, r6g (Graviton2) instances?
- CoolGuySteve 6y ago
  a1, this was before Graviton2 was released.