6 ms·

You Have a First Amendment Right to Record the Police

96 points by DiabloD3 6y ago

nappa-leon 6y ago
The problem with this is that a policeman with a billy club who beats you because you're recording him doesn't care about your rights and not get fired. So be careful out there
- wahern 6y ago
  I wonder, are there any apps that upload video in real-time?
  - bzb4 6y ago
    Periscope?
  - colejohnson66 6y ago
    Facebook Live
    - wahern 6y ago
      I guess I should have been more clear: real-time but not live or automatically published. If it's automatically published then many people may be reticent to begin recording. For example, maybe you don't want the fact that your friend or family member is being arrested to immediately become public knowledge or otherwise shared, embarrassing video and all.[1][2] If in the end there's no police misconduct, the whole incident can remain relatively private. Yet if it turns out you're recording misconduct then it would be important that the footage be uploaded in real-time in case the cop (or anybody else) destroys your phone. FWIW, I abstain from Facebook, Twitter, and social media in general. Apologies if Facebook Live or any other suggestion does support this. [1] I'm white but grew up in home environments where the police were called many times, sometimes hauling someone away kicking and screaming. (Typical unintended consequence of alcohol abuse and otherwise bad life decisions, albeit all too common life decisions in poor America.) You have to be sensitive to such situations, especially in the modern electronic era where it's extremely difficult to escape past mistakes. [2] The arrest could have been mistaken, in which case you definitely don't want a video of it getting out unless there was actual police misconduct or possibly even if there was police misconduct.
  - randomdude402 6y ago
    https://www.reddit.com/r/YouShouldKnow/comments/gtnpcv/ysk_that_the_aclu_has_apps_for_recording_police/ https://www.reddit.com/r/YouShouldKnow/comments/gtnpcv/ysk_t...
  - rasz 6y ago
    sure https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=PEjipYKbOOU https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=PEjipYKbOOU
  - Nicksil 6y ago
    I have not personally used this, but have it bookmarked from previous discussions. Might be worth a look: https://www.aclu.org/issues/criminal-law-reform/reforming-police/aclu-apps-record-police-conduct?redirect=feature/aclu-apps-record-police-conduct https://www.aclu.org/issues/criminal-law-reform/reforming-po...
  - getpost 6y ago
    https://www.aclu.org/issues/criminal-law-reform/reforming-police/aclu-apps-record-police-conduct https://www.aclu.org/issues/criminal-law-reform/reforming-po...
- im3w1l-alt 6y ago
  Does getting beat for recording actually happen though?
  - grecy 6y ago
    It sure did to this Australian news crew live on air a few days ago https://youtu.be/wkf-znzWKRc?t=18 https://youtu.be/wkf-znzWKRc?t=18 also https://www.forbes.com/sites/sergeiklebnikov/2020/06/04/journalists-targeted-while-covering-protests-279-press-freedom-violations-and-counting https://www.forbes.com/sites/sergeiklebnikov/2020/06/04/jour...
  - mey 6y ago
    https://www.nlg.org/police-targeting-nlg-legal-observers-at-black-lives-matter-protests/ https://www.nlg.org/police-targeting-nlg-legal-observers-at-... https://www.aclu.org/news/free-speech/police-are-attacking-journalists-at-protests-were-suing/ https://www.aclu.org/news/free-speech/police-are-attacking-j... Some sources Edit: https://pressfreedomtracker.us/ https://pressfreedomtracker.us/ 2nd Edit: Quick note about Press Freedom Tracker, since they verify reports, their stats page may be a bit misleading. See https://twitter.com/uspresstracker/status/1270054490293616645 https://twitter.com/uspresstracker/status/127005449029361664...
  - guerrilla 6y ago
    Have you missed the 383+ or so cases of police attacking press this week? stats [1] vids [2] [1]. https://twitter.com/uspresstracker/status/1270054490293616645?s=20 https://twitter.com/uspresstracker/status/127005449029361664... [2]. https://twitter.com/apodoxus/status/1267336229097439239 https://twitter.com/apodoxus/status/1267336229097439239
  - craftinator 6y ago
    In Portland OR over the weekend, I witnessed this first hand. It wasn't even random people, it was press, with press badges. Beaten with a riot stick, and maced, multiple times. After he was beaten and maced he started limping away, the officer raised the mace, then hit him in the back a couple of times till the reporter turned around, then maced him full in the face. You can see the first hand and CCTV footage on Cory Elia's Twitter account, @TheRealCoryElia. He's also a news journalism professor at Portland Public University I believe.
- baybal2 6y ago
  > The problem with this is that a policeman with a billy club who beats you because you're recording him doesn't care about your rights and not get fired. So be careful out there I had this discussion with many Americans: "What makes a constitutionally protected right to bear arms work, without a constitutionally protected right to use them?"
  - didgeoridoo 6y ago
    Believe it or not, in most states you do indeed have the right to self-defense against the police.[0] If the police are acting with excessive force, likely to cause great physical harm, you are within your rights to choose to fight back (notwithstanding the fact that this will probably get you killed). This principle was a big part of Randy Weaver’s successful defense after the Ruby Ridge stand-off. [0]: https://www.nolo.com/legal-encyclopedia/resisting-arrest-when-police-use-excessive-force.html https://www.nolo.com/legal-encyclopedia/resisting-arrest-whe...
- Fjolsvith 6y ago
  Will this be any better once the policemen are replaced with brownshirts? https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Sturmabteilung https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Sturmabteilung
rasz 6y ago
and Police has Qualified immunity to beat you senseless for it without repercussions, your choice.
- ta17711771 6y ago
  That's just another reason for everyone to be recording.
- didgeoridoo 6y ago
  Qualified immunity is for civil repercussions, not criminal. Individual police officers can go to jail for committing crimes in the line of duty. Any civil lawsuits stemming from such acts, however, cannot be aimed at the individual officer, but must instead be against the city/state/feds. I’m skeptical that letting officers get sued for things they can already go to jail for would be a major additional deterrent. (To be clear, I’m in favor of ending qualified immunity in cases associated with criminal acts, not because I think it will make things better, but because it is fundamentally unjust for the taxpayers to be forced to cover the bill for an individual officer’s illegal acts, when the officer — of all people — should have known that the act was illegal)
  - sjg007 6y ago
    Police basically have immunity to beat you senseless if you so much as breathe on them.
  - sukilot 6y ago
    So if poor police officers abuse people, the victims don't get any compensation? That's not good.
    - thephyber 6y ago
      I can't tell if you're trolling, but in case you're not, QI doesn't prevent the victim from seeking restitution, it just puts an umbrella over the officer's personal wealth by protecting it with the department/municipality's wealth. It's the worst part of what we complained about banks and bailouts in 2008+: it socializes the costs and privatizes the profits/impunity.
opwieurposiu 6y ago
Defund the police. Force agents of the state to carry malpractice insuarance.
- DarthGhandi 6y ago
  How exactly should society enforce laws with no police? Mob Justice?
  - sukilot 6y ago
    Defund doesn't mean destroy. It means decrease funding.
  - wbronitsky 6y ago
    We seek to replace things that are not working all of the time. Sometimes it takes more creative solutions, but usually we can fix systemic issues we have created ourselves, as long as we have a little imagination. Defunding the police would allow us to do things like fund more social workers and non-armed, non-enforcement officers who can help people in crisis. It would allow us to fund infrastructure for safer streets, classrooms and highways. It would allow us to fund restorative justice programs, subsidize housing for those who need help and make our society work for everyone. It would allow us to fund drug treatment and education programs, fund school lunches, and help create vocational training. Fundamentally, defunding the police would allow us to actually identify the problems that they solve, and eliminate those they create. The problems that are left over can then be solved in different ways.
JohnClark1337 6y ago
Won't matter if we decide to get rid of the police
Scarblac 6y ago
As a non-American, this sounds bizarre. Yes of course free speech is important, and being able to record the police is. But how can recording something be considered speech?!
- sukilot 6y ago
  It's not "considered speech". 1A says: > Congress shall make no law [religion stuff]; or abridging the freedom of speech, or of the press; or the right of the people peaceably to assemble, and to petition the Government for a redress of grievances. It's part of the overall combined notion of "speech, press, assembly, and petition"
- thephyber 6y ago
  > how can recording something be considered speech You have to go back and understand the jurisprudence of US courts a long time to understand it. Basically you can't take the word "speech" too literally; it could be literal speech or the ability to assemble/protest, or the ability write a book, or the ability to spend money on a political election (what the sane world calls bribery far more than the USA does).

96 points by DiabloD3 6y ago

The problem with this is that a policeman with a billy club who beats you because you're recording him doesn't care about your rights and not get fired. So be careful out there

wahern 6y ago
I wonder, are there any apps that upload video in real-time?
- bzb4 6y ago
  Periscope?
- colejohnson66 6y ago
  Facebook Live
  - wahern 6y ago
    I guess I should have been more clear: real-time but not live or automatically published. If it's automatically published then many people may be reticent to begin recording. For example, maybe you don't want the fact that your friend or family member is being arrested to immediately become public knowledge or otherwise shared, embarrassing video and all.[1][2] If in the end there's no police misconduct, the whole incident can remain relatively private. Yet if it turns out you're recording misconduct then it would be important that the footage be uploaded in real-time in case the cop (or anybody else) destroys your phone. FWIW, I abstain from Facebook, Twitter, and social media in general. Apologies if Facebook Live or any other suggestion does support this. [1] I'm white but grew up in home environments where the police were called many times, sometimes hauling someone away kicking and screaming. (Typical unintended consequence of alcohol abuse and otherwise bad life decisions, albeit all too common life decisions in poor America.) You have to be sensitive to such situations, especially in the modern electronic era where it's extremely difficult to escape past mistakes. [2] The arrest could have been mistaken, in which case you definitely don't want a video of it getting out unless there was actual police misconduct or possibly even if there was police misconduct.
- randomdude402 6y ago
  https://www.reddit.com/r/YouShouldKnow/comments/gtnpcv/ysk_that_the_aclu_has_apps_for_recording_police/ https://www.reddit.com/r/YouShouldKnow/comments/gtnpcv/ysk_t...
- rasz 6y ago
  sure https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=PEjipYKbOOU https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=PEjipYKbOOU
- Nicksil 6y ago
  I have not personally used this, but have it bookmarked from previous discussions. Might be worth a look: https://www.aclu.org/issues/criminal-law-reform/reforming-police/aclu-apps-record-police-conduct?redirect=feature/aclu-apps-record-police-conduct https://www.aclu.org/issues/criminal-law-reform/reforming-po...
- getpost 6y ago
  https://www.aclu.org/issues/criminal-law-reform/reforming-police/aclu-apps-record-police-conduct https://www.aclu.org/issues/criminal-law-reform/reforming-po...
im3w1l-alt 6y ago
Does getting beat for recording actually happen though?
- grecy 6y ago
  It sure did to this Australian news crew live on air a few days ago https://youtu.be/wkf-znzWKRc?t=18 https://youtu.be/wkf-znzWKRc?t=18 also https://www.forbes.com/sites/sergeiklebnikov/2020/06/04/journalists-targeted-while-covering-protests-279-press-freedom-violations-and-counting https://www.forbes.com/sites/sergeiklebnikov/2020/06/04/jour...
- mey 6y ago
  https://www.nlg.org/police-targeting-nlg-legal-observers-at-black-lives-matter-protests/ https://www.nlg.org/police-targeting-nlg-legal-observers-at-... https://www.aclu.org/news/free-speech/police-are-attacking-journalists-at-protests-were-suing/ https://www.aclu.org/news/free-speech/police-are-attacking-j... Some sources Edit: https://pressfreedomtracker.us/ https://pressfreedomtracker.us/ 2nd Edit: Quick note about Press Freedom Tracker, since they verify reports, their stats page may be a bit misleading. See https://twitter.com/uspresstracker/status/1270054490293616645 https://twitter.com/uspresstracker/status/127005449029361664...
- guerrilla 6y ago
  Have you missed the 383+ or so cases of police attacking press this week? stats [1] vids [2] [1]. https://twitter.com/uspresstracker/status/1270054490293616645?s=20 https://twitter.com/uspresstracker/status/127005449029361664... [2]. https://twitter.com/apodoxus/status/1267336229097439239 https://twitter.com/apodoxus/status/1267336229097439239
- craftinator 6y ago
  In Portland OR over the weekend, I witnessed this first hand. It wasn't even random people, it was press, with press badges. Beaten with a riot stick, and maced, multiple times. After he was beaten and maced he started limping away, the officer raised the mace, then hit him in the back a couple of times till the reporter turned around, then maced him full in the face. You can see the first hand and CCTV footage on Cory Elia's Twitter account, @TheRealCoryElia. He's also a news journalism professor at Portland Public University I believe.
baybal2 6y ago
> The problem with this is that a policeman with a billy club who beats you because you're recording him doesn't care about your rights and not get fired. So be careful out there I had this discussion with many Americans: "What makes a constitutionally protected right to bear arms work, without a constitutionally protected right to use them?"
- didgeoridoo 6y ago
  Believe it or not, in most states you do indeed have the right to self-defense against the police.[0] If the police are acting with excessive force, likely to cause great physical harm, you are within your rights to choose to fight back (notwithstanding the fact that this will probably get you killed). This principle was a big part of Randy Weaver’s successful defense after the Ruby Ridge stand-off. [0]: https://www.nolo.com/legal-encyclopedia/resisting-arrest-when-police-use-excessive-force.html https://www.nolo.com/legal-encyclopedia/resisting-arrest-whe...
Fjolsvith 6y ago
Will this be any better once the policemen are replaced with brownshirts? https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Sturmabteilung https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Sturmabteilung

rasz 6y ago

and Police has Qualified immunity to beat you senseless for it without repercussions, your choice.

ta17711771 6y ago
That's just another reason for everyone to be recording.
didgeoridoo 6y ago
Qualified immunity is for civil repercussions, not criminal. Individual police officers can go to jail for committing crimes in the line of duty. Any civil lawsuits stemming from such acts, however, cannot be aimed at the individual officer, but must instead be against the city/state/feds. I’m skeptical that letting officers get sued for things they can already go to jail for would be a major additional deterrent. (To be clear, I’m in favor of ending qualified immunity in cases associated with criminal acts, not because I think it will make things better, but because it is fundamentally unjust for the taxpayers to be forced to cover the bill for an individual officer’s illegal acts, when the officer — of all people — should have known that the act was illegal)
- sjg007 6y ago
  Police basically have immunity to beat you senseless if you so much as breathe on them.
- sukilot 6y ago
  So if poor police officers abuse people, the victims don't get any compensation? That's not good.
  - thephyber 6y ago
    I can't tell if you're trolling, but in case you're not, QI doesn't prevent the victim from seeking restitution, it just puts an umbrella over the officer's personal wealth by protecting it with the department/municipality's wealth. It's the worst part of what we complained about banks and bailouts in 2008+: it socializes the costs and privatizes the profits/impunity.

opwieurposiu 6y ago

Defund the police. Force agents of the state to carry malpractice insuarance.

DarthGhandi 6y ago
How exactly should society enforce laws with no police? Mob Justice?
- sukilot 6y ago
  Defund doesn't mean destroy. It means decrease funding.
- wbronitsky 6y ago
  We seek to replace things that are not working all of the time. Sometimes it takes more creative solutions, but usually we can fix systemic issues we have created ourselves, as long as we have a little imagination. Defunding the police would allow us to do things like fund more social workers and non-armed, non-enforcement officers who can help people in crisis. It would allow us to fund infrastructure for safer streets, classrooms and highways. It would allow us to fund restorative justice programs, subsidize housing for those who need help and make our society work for everyone. It would allow us to fund drug treatment and education programs, fund school lunches, and help create vocational training. Fundamentally, defunding the police would allow us to actually identify the problems that they solve, and eliminate those they create. The problems that are left over can then be solved in different ways.

JohnClark1337 6y ago

Won't matter if we decide to get rid of the police

Scarblac 6y ago

As a non-American, this sounds bizarre. Yes of course free speech is important, and being able to record the police is. But how can recording something be considered speech?!

sukilot 6y ago
It's not "considered speech". 1A says: > Congress shall make no law [religion stuff]; or abridging the freedom of speech, or of the press; or the right of the people peaceably to assemble, and to petition the Government for a redress of grievances. It's part of the overall combined notion of "speech, press, assembly, and petition"
thephyber 6y ago
> how can recording something be considered speech You have to go back and understand the jurisprudence of US courts a long time to understand it. Basically you can't take the word "speech" too literally; it could be literal speech or the ability to assemble/protest, or the ability write a book, or the ability to spend money on a political election (what the sane world calls bribery far more than the USA does).