3 ms·

I believe you are referring to the SKIP method, which near as I remember is really only used by one Dictionary publisher (at least 10 years ago, although a lot

by SllX 6y ago

I believe you are referring to the SKIP method, which near as I remember is really only used by one Dictionary publisher (at least 10 years ago, although a lot of dictionary apps I've seen include it now) and is a very modern invention. The real reason comes down to legibility. Kanji written badly can be hard to read, and Katakana or Hiragana written improperly can throw you off as well (め、ぬ、ね、れ、わ、ろ、る、シ、ツ、ソ、ン、ク、タ、ヌ). Japanese teachers, just like teachers anywhere, try to teach good penmanship not just as a virtue, but because it makes their own lives easier to stick to the rules and to have their students stick to the rules. The language itself has also undergone some reforms since the Meiji era to standardize and regulate it, including the stroke order.

numpad0 6y ago
Hiragana letters are actually sorted from あ to ん like A to Z, but Kanji such as 阿 and 吽 or 本, 間, 新, 一 has no linear sort orders, is probably what GP was explained.
- SllX 6y ago
  Hmm, could be, but if you're relying on stroke order for lookup, that sounds like the SKIP method to me. You have to have knowledge of the stroke order, and be able to figure out the exact stroke count by looking at a Kanji in order to use SKIP effectively. I'm not overly familiar with other lookup methods, possibly because I shaped my biases around using SKIP for lookups back when I studied Japanese. This is a little off topic, but since I don't often get occasion to bring this up, let me drop it off here that there's also an alternative sort order which is an archaic (mostly, there are places that still use it), but cool sorting order called いろは ("iroha")[1] which is a poem which uses each character of the syllabary, each kana in other words, exactly once. Also, if you open TextEdit on a Mac in Rich Text mode and create a list from the toolbar, there's an option to "Show More" which allows you to use いろは and other Japanese sort orders as bullet points. [1] https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Iroha https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Iroha
  - unscaled 6y ago
    The SKIP method is indeed a modern invention. It was invented by Jack Halpern and used in his Kanji dictionaries which were published by Kodansha and Kenkyusha - I guess this is where the 'single publisher' idea is coming from. These dictionaries are all 'Learner's dictionaries', and I'm not sure if SKIP was ever used in a dictionary aimed at native speaker - although it is probably the best method for paper-based Kanji lookup. The more traditional stroke-count based lookup, OP was referring to is probably the radical+stroke count lookup, which is of Chinese origin and considerably older[1]. Using that system, you would first find out the kanji's radical (部, basically just a "part" in Japanese), find the radical in the index, count the remaining number of strokes in the kanji and then find the kanji. Both the radicals themselves and the kanji listed below each radical heading in the index are ordered by stroke count, which qualifies this system as stroke count ordering. This system is unfortunately much more confusing than SKIP (especially for learners), since there is a good chunk of kanji where the radical is not apparent, some radicals have multiple variants - and of course you'd have to first learn all the 214 standard radicals in the first place. [1] https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Kangxi_radical https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Kangxi_radical
- deleted 6y ago
  [deleted]
- unscaled 6y ago
  Kanji dictionaries are usually not sorted by reading. These are the dictionaries you will be using for looking up unknown or obscure kanji, not for looking up words (which may be composed of multiple kanji - or no kanji at all!). Since it is assumed that if you don't know the kanji, you also don't its reading, sorting this kind of dictionary by reading doesn't make sense. Besides, unlike in Chinese, most Japanese kanji have multiple (often many) different readings, sorting by reading just doesn't make sense. But besides Kanji dictionaries, most Japanese dictionaries (and other lists of words or name) are started by Gojūon (五十音), the standard sound order. If it is a specific word or name you're after, it generally has a distinct reading and it can by sorted by that reading.

by SllX 6y ago

numpad0 6y ago

Hiragana letters are actually sorted from あ to ん like A to Z, but Kanji such as 阿 and 吽 or 本, 間, 新, 一 has no linear sort orders, is probably what GP was explained.

SllX 6y ago
Hmm, could be, but if you're relying on stroke order for lookup, that sounds like the SKIP method to me. You have to have knowledge of the stroke order, and be able to figure out the exact stroke count by looking at a Kanji in order to use SKIP effectively. I'm not overly familiar with other lookup methods, possibly because I shaped my biases around using SKIP for lookups back when I studied Japanese. This is a little off topic, but since I don't often get occasion to bring this up, let me drop it off here that there's also an alternative sort order which is an archaic (mostly, there are places that still use it), but cool sorting order called いろは ("iroha")[1] which is a poem which uses each character of the syllabary, each kana in other words, exactly once. Also, if you open TextEdit on a Mac in Rich Text mode and create a list from the toolbar, there's an option to "Show More" which allows you to use いろは and other Japanese sort orders as bullet points. [1] https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Iroha https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Iroha
- unscaled 6y ago
  The SKIP method is indeed a modern invention. It was invented by Jack Halpern and used in his Kanji dictionaries which were published by Kodansha and Kenkyusha - I guess this is where the 'single publisher' idea is coming from. These dictionaries are all 'Learner's dictionaries', and I'm not sure if SKIP was ever used in a dictionary aimed at native speaker - although it is probably the best method for paper-based Kanji lookup. The more traditional stroke-count based lookup, OP was referring to is probably the radical+stroke count lookup, which is of Chinese origin and considerably older[1]. Using that system, you would first find out the kanji's radical (部, basically just a "part" in Japanese), find the radical in the index, count the remaining number of strokes in the kanji and then find the kanji. Both the radicals themselves and the kanji listed below each radical heading in the index are ordered by stroke count, which qualifies this system as stroke count ordering. This system is unfortunately much more confusing than SKIP (especially for learners), since there is a good chunk of kanji where the radical is not apparent, some radicals have multiple variants - and of course you'd have to first learn all the 214 standard radicals in the first place. [1] https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Kangxi_radical https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Kangxi_radical
deleted 6y ago
[deleted]
unscaled 6y ago
Kanji dictionaries are usually not sorted by reading. These are the dictionaries you will be using for looking up unknown or obscure kanji, not for looking up words (which may be composed of multiple kanji - or no kanji at all!). Since it is assumed that if you don't know the kanji, you also don't its reading, sorting this kind of dictionary by reading doesn't make sense. Besides, unlike in Chinese, most Japanese kanji have multiple (often many) different readings, sorting by reading just doesn't make sense. But besides Kanji dictionaries, most Japanese dictionaries (and other lists of words or name) are started by Gojūon (五十音), the standard sound order. If it is a specific word or name you're after, it generally has a distinct reading and it can by sorted by that reading.