4 ms·

> so "alphabetical" order is a meaningless concept Japanese does have its alphabetical order. It's called gojyuon-jyun (or aiueo-jyun) [1], and most commonly u

> so "alphabetical" order is a meaningless concept Japanese does have its alphabetical order. It's called gojyuon-jyun (or aiueo-jyun) [1], and most commonly used dictionaries use this order [2]. [1] https://ja.wikipedia.org/wiki/%E4%BA%94%E5%8D%81%E9%9F%B3%E9%A0%86 https://ja.wikipedia.org/wiki/%E4%BA%94%E5%8D%81%E9%9F%B3%E9... [2] http://octoba.jp/wp-content/uploads/2015/11/jp.ne_.biglobe.shinmeikai.gp_240135.png http://octoba.jp/wp-content/uploads/2015/11/jp.ne_.biglobe.s...

numpad0 6y ago
Only for hiragana/katakana though
- redthrow 6y ago
  ? It's for all words, including words written in kanji.
  - numpad0 6y ago
    Parent comment is about kanji and you’re talking hiragana pronunciation. Words that may contain kanji that naturally has pronunciations are sorted by pronunciation, yes, but individual kanji never even had an inclusive list and thus no logically defined linear order existed/exist.
    - redthrow 6y ago
      All Japanese words (not characters) have kana pronunciations, but yes, for individual kanji characters, people use a specific type of dictionary called kanji dictionary (漢字辞典) and the order of this dictionary is indeed not (always) based on the pronunciation (stroke count of radicals is often used for the paper version). Here's an (online) example: https://kanji.jitenon.jp/ https://kanji.jitenon.jp/ On the right hand side of the above site, it shows the pronunciation (both on-yomi & kun-yomi) and the stroke count.
    - mikekchar 6y ago
      Actually, Chinese characters did originally have a defined linear order (or, rather several schools existed IIRC). It's been a while since I looked at this, but essentially they were ordered by radical and then pronunciation, with some other tie breaker rules. Japanese word dictionaries, though, are indeed usually ordered by pronunciation. Kanji dictionaries have a variety of different orders, but most of them are ordered by radical and stroke count.

numpad0 6y ago

Only for hiragana/katakana though

redthrow 6y ago
? It's for all words, including words written in kanji.
- numpad0 6y ago
  Parent comment is about kanji and you’re talking hiragana pronunciation. Words that may contain kanji that naturally has pronunciations are sorted by pronunciation, yes, but individual kanji never even had an inclusive list and thus no logically defined linear order existed/exist.
  - redthrow 6y ago
    All Japanese words (not characters) have kana pronunciations, but yes, for individual kanji characters, people use a specific type of dictionary called kanji dictionary (漢字辞典) and the order of this dictionary is indeed not (always) based on the pronunciation (stroke count of radicals is often used for the paper version). Here's an (online) example: https://kanji.jitenon.jp/ https://kanji.jitenon.jp/ On the right hand side of the above site, it shows the pronunciation (both on-yomi & kun-yomi) and the stroke count.
  - mikekchar 6y ago
    Actually, Chinese characters did originally have a defined linear order (or, rather several schools existed IIRC). It's been a while since I looked at this, but essentially they were ordered by radical and then pronunciation, with some other tie breaker rules. Japanese word dictionaries, though, are indeed usually ordered by pronunciation. Kanji dictionaries have a variety of different orders, but most of them are ordered by radical and stroke count.