4 ms·

I took Japanese in college, and we were taught that this is because dictionaries are arranged by stroke. For Kanji characters there are tens of thousands of the

I took Japanese in college, and we were taught that this is because dictionaries are arranged by stroke. For Kanji characters there are tens of thousands of them, so "alphabetical" order is a meaningless concept, making stroke count and order the most meaningful ordering concept. But that then requires stroke order (and direction) something you have to be completely consistent about. This is a memory from a couple of decades ago, so I could be wrong.

redthrow 6y ago
> so "alphabetical" order is a meaningless concept Japanese does have its alphabetical order. It's called gojyuon-jyun (or aiueo-jyun) [1], and most commonly used dictionaries use this order [2]. [1] https://ja.wikipedia.org/wiki/%E4%BA%94%E5%8D%81%E9%9F%B3%E9%A0%86 https://ja.wikipedia.org/wiki/%E4%BA%94%E5%8D%81%E9%9F%B3%E9... [2] http://octoba.jp/wp-content/uploads/2015/11/jp.ne_.biglobe.shinmeikai.gp_240135.png http://octoba.jp/wp-content/uploads/2015/11/jp.ne_.biglobe.s...
- numpad0 6y ago
  Only for hiragana/katakana though
  - redthrow 6y ago
    ? It's for all words, including words written in kanji.
    - numpad0 6y ago
      Parent comment is about kanji and you’re talking hiragana pronunciation. Words that may contain kanji that naturally has pronunciations are sorted by pronunciation, yes, but individual kanji never even had an inclusive list and thus no logically defined linear order existed/exist.
      - redthrow 6y ago
        All Japanese words (not characters) have kana pronunciations, but yes, for individual kanji characters, people use a specific type of dictionary called kanji dictionary (漢字辞典) and the order of this dictionary is indeed not (always) based on the pronunciation (stroke count of radicals is often used for the paper version). Here's an (online) example: https://kanji.jitenon.jp/ https://kanji.jitenon.jp/ On the right hand side of the above site, it shows the pronunciation (both on-yomi & kun-yomi) and the stroke count.
      - mikekchar 6y ago
        Actually, Chinese characters did originally have a defined linear order (or, rather several schools existed IIRC). It's been a while since I looked at this, but essentially they were ordered by radical and then pronunciation, with some other tie breaker rules. Japanese word dictionaries, though, are indeed usually ordered by pronunciation. Kanji dictionaries have a variety of different orders, but most of them are ordered by radical and stroke count.
SllX 6y ago
I believe you are referring to the SKIP method, which near as I remember is really only used by one Dictionary publisher (at least 10 years ago, although a lot of dictionary apps I've seen include it now) and is a very modern invention. The real reason comes down to legibility. Kanji written badly can be hard to read, and Katakana or Hiragana written improperly can throw you off as well (め、ぬ、ね、れ、わ、ろ、る、シ、ツ、ソ、ン、ク、タ、ヌ). Japanese teachers, just like teachers anywhere, try to teach good penmanship not just as a virtue, but because it makes their own lives easier to stick to the rules and to have their students stick to the rules. The language itself has also undergone some reforms since the Meiji era to standardize and regulate it, including the stroke order.
- numpad0 6y ago
  Hiragana letters are actually sorted from あ to ん like A to Z, but Kanji such as 阿 and 吽 or 本, 間, 新, 一 has no linear sort orders, is probably what GP was explained.
  - SllX 6y ago
    Hmm, could be, but if you're relying on stroke order for lookup, that sounds like the SKIP method to me. You have to have knowledge of the stroke order, and be able to figure out the exact stroke count by looking at a Kanji in order to use SKIP effectively. I'm not overly familiar with other lookup methods, possibly because I shaped my biases around using SKIP for lookups back when I studied Japanese. This is a little off topic, but since I don't often get occasion to bring this up, let me drop it off here that there's also an alternative sort order which is an archaic (mostly, there are places that still use it), but cool sorting order called いろは ("iroha")[1] which is a poem which uses each character of the syllabary, each kana in other words, exactly once. Also, if you open TextEdit on a Mac in Rich Text mode and create a list from the toolbar, there's an option to "Show More" which allows you to use いろは and other Japanese sort orders as bullet points. [1] https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Iroha https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Iroha
    - unscaled 6y ago
      The SKIP method is indeed a modern invention. It was invented by Jack Halpern and used in his Kanji dictionaries which were published by Kodansha and Kenkyusha - I guess this is where the 'single publisher' idea is coming from. These dictionaries are all 'Learner's dictionaries', and I'm not sure if SKIP was ever used in a dictionary aimed at native speaker - although it is probably the best method for paper-based Kanji lookup. The more traditional stroke-count based lookup, OP was referring to is probably the radical+stroke count lookup, which is of Chinese origin and considerably older[1]. Using that system, you would first find out the kanji's radical (部, basically just a "part" in Japanese), find the radical in the index, count the remaining number of strokes in the kanji and then find the kanji. Both the radicals themselves and the kanji listed below each radical heading in the index are ordered by stroke count, which qualifies this system as stroke count ordering. This system is unfortunately much more confusing than SKIP (especially for learners), since there is a good chunk of kanji where the radical is not apparent, some radicals have multiple variants - and of course you'd have to first learn all the 214 standard radicals in the first place. [1] https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Kangxi_radical https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Kangxi_radical
snuxoll 6y ago
> I took Japanese in college, and we were taught that this is because dictionaries are arranged by stroke. There's multiple methods of searching a modern Kanji dictionary, but, yes, this is a useful property of stroke order. The bigger issue is when you have characters with 8+ strokes you quickly become reliant on specific shapes that come as artifacts to the stroke direction and order for proper identification, messing this up makes things a pain to read. You also cannot purely rely on an "alphabetical" sorting in a Kanji dictionary anyway, as every character may have two pronunciations and you need to be able to look it up without knowing either. Some do have indexes letting you look a character up if you already know the on-yomi or kun-yomi reading but not the other, though.

redthrow 6y ago

> so "alphabetical" order is a meaningless concept Japanese does have its alphabetical order. It's called gojyuon-jyun (or aiueo-jyun) [1], and most commonly used dictionaries use this order [2]. [1] https://ja.wikipedia.org/wiki/%E4%BA%94%E5%8D%81%E9%9F%B3%E9%A0%86 https://ja.wikipedia.org/wiki/%E4%BA%94%E5%8D%81%E9%9F%B3%E9... [2] http://octoba.jp/wp-content/uploads/2015/11/jp.ne_.biglobe.shinmeikai.gp_240135.png http://octoba.jp/wp-content/uploads/2015/11/jp.ne_.biglobe.s...

numpad0 6y ago
Only for hiragana/katakana though
- redthrow 6y ago
  ? It's for all words, including words written in kanji.
  - numpad0 6y ago
    Parent comment is about kanji and you’re talking hiragana pronunciation. Words that may contain kanji that naturally has pronunciations are sorted by pronunciation, yes, but individual kanji never even had an inclusive list and thus no logically defined linear order existed/exist.
    - redthrow 6y ago
      All Japanese words (not characters) have kana pronunciations, but yes, for individual kanji characters, people use a specific type of dictionary called kanji dictionary (漢字辞典) and the order of this dictionary is indeed not (always) based on the pronunciation (stroke count of radicals is often used for the paper version). Here's an (online) example: https://kanji.jitenon.jp/ https://kanji.jitenon.jp/ On the right hand side of the above site, it shows the pronunciation (both on-yomi & kun-yomi) and the stroke count.
    - mikekchar 6y ago
      Actually, Chinese characters did originally have a defined linear order (or, rather several schools existed IIRC). It's been a while since I looked at this, but essentially they were ordered by radical and then pronunciation, with some other tie breaker rules. Japanese word dictionaries, though, are indeed usually ordered by pronunciation. Kanji dictionaries have a variety of different orders, but most of them are ordered by radical and stroke count.

SllX 6y ago

I believe you are referring to the SKIP method, which near as I remember is really only used by one Dictionary publisher (at least 10 years ago, although a lot of dictionary apps I've seen include it now) and is a very modern invention. The real reason comes down to legibility. Kanji written badly can be hard to read, and Katakana or Hiragana written improperly can throw you off as well (め、ぬ、ね、れ、わ、ろ、る、シ、ツ、ソ、ン、ク、タ、ヌ). Japanese teachers, just like teachers anywhere, try to teach good penmanship not just as a virtue, but because it makes their own lives easier to stick to the rules and to have their students stick to the rules. The language itself has also undergone some reforms since the Meiji era to standardize and regulate it, including the stroke order.

numpad0 6y ago
Hiragana letters are actually sorted from あ to ん like A to Z, but Kanji such as 阿 and 吽 or 本, 間, 新, 一 has no linear sort orders, is probably what GP was explained.
- SllX 6y ago
  Hmm, could be, but if you're relying on stroke order for lookup, that sounds like the SKIP method to me. You have to have knowledge of the stroke order, and be able to figure out the exact stroke count by looking at a Kanji in order to use SKIP effectively. I'm not overly familiar with other lookup methods, possibly because I shaped my biases around using SKIP for lookups back when I studied Japanese. This is a little off topic, but since I don't often get occasion to bring this up, let me drop it off here that there's also an alternative sort order which is an archaic (mostly, there are places that still use it), but cool sorting order called いろは ("iroha")[1] which is a poem which uses each character of the syllabary, each kana in other words, exactly once. Also, if you open TextEdit on a Mac in Rich Text mode and create a list from the toolbar, there's an option to "Show More" which allows you to use いろは and other Japanese sort orders as bullet points. [1] https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Iroha https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Iroha
  - unscaled 6y ago
    The SKIP method is indeed a modern invention. It was invented by Jack Halpern and used in his Kanji dictionaries which were published by Kodansha and Kenkyusha - I guess this is where the 'single publisher' idea is coming from. These dictionaries are all 'Learner's dictionaries', and I'm not sure if SKIP was ever used in a dictionary aimed at native speaker - although it is probably the best method for paper-based Kanji lookup. The more traditional stroke-count based lookup, OP was referring to is probably the radical+stroke count lookup, which is of Chinese origin and considerably older[1]. Using that system, you would first find out the kanji's radical (部, basically just a "part" in Japanese), find the radical in the index, count the remaining number of strokes in the kanji and then find the kanji. Both the radicals themselves and the kanji listed below each radical heading in the index are ordered by stroke count, which qualifies this system as stroke count ordering. This system is unfortunately much more confusing than SKIP (especially for learners), since there is a good chunk of kanji where the radical is not apparent, some radicals have multiple variants - and of course you'd have to first learn all the 214 standard radicals in the first place. [1] https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Kangxi_radical https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Kangxi_radical

snuxoll 6y ago

> I took Japanese in college, and we were taught that this is because dictionaries are arranged by stroke. There's multiple methods of searching a modern Kanji dictionary, but, yes, this is a useful property of stroke order. The bigger issue is when you have characters with 8+ strokes you quickly become reliant on specific shapes that come as artifacts to the stroke direction and order for proper identification, messing this up makes things a pain to read. You also cannot purely rely on an "alphabetical" sorting in a Kanji dictionary anyway, as every character may have two pronunciations and you need to be able to look it up without knowing either. Some do have indexes letting you look a character up if you already know the on-yomi or kun-yomi reading but not the other, though.