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Teaching children unnecessary rote memorization over creativity... Gotta start them early

eej71 6y ago
It's too bad that memorization - as a tool - is so readily dismissed. I think it is immensely valuable and enables one to master complex material and establish insights that would not be readily available through other means. I think its a false alternative to see it as memorization vs. creativity. I'd make the case that memorization provides a useful foundation for creativity. It enables one to command a large set of facts to then integrate them into new insights.
- Grustaf 6y ago
  Definitely. The most creative artists, musicians, acrobats etc are not the ones that skipped learning the basics. Only when you mastered the basics very very thoroughly can you start being creative and innovative.
  - watwut 6y ago
    But, art fundamentals are not learned through rote repetition. There is a lot of practice, but it is supposed to be mindfull instead of rote and also is coupled with a lot of explanations of how things work and a lot of creative work. The usual drawing advice is complete opposite of what you suggest. Playing instrument in classical school is learned through repetition, but this schooling is not producing composers nor people able to create new music nor improvise. It makes people able to perform increasingly difficult technical pieces someone else made. That is completely different goal and schooling. Likewise, acrobats are not choreographs which is something completely different. Acrobacy does not lead to that.
    - Grustaf 6y ago
      Do you have any examples of brilliant innovative musicians that did not master the basics very thoroughly? I don’t believe the commonly repeated idea that rote learning and repetition would somehow inhibit innovation. I’m quite sure it’s the opposite. Take Rodney Mullen, by far the most innovative skater ever, he practically created new school skateboarding. He’s a machine, completely mastered old school and is extremely consistent.
Grustaf 6y ago
Except it’s not unnecessary at all, Japanese writing is fundamentally different from Latin, stroke order is crucial. And it’s probably not a coincidence that Japanese kids are among the smartest and best educated in the world.
- eska 6y ago
  Except for.. English. Where they score the worst out of all Asian nations.
  - user982 6y ago
    Those other Asian nations also have stroke order rules for native writing. None of the apparent claims in this thread ("Stroke order stunts creativity!" "Stroke order shows/increases intelligence!" "Stroke order has negative correlation with English proficiency!") seem well-founded.
    - Grustaf 6y ago
      I don’t mean that stroke order boost intelligence, it’s not difficulty. I was talking about the japanese school system in general. Not that i think it’s perfect, but rote learning is not pointless.
supernova87a 6y ago
This is so stereotyped an opinion that it's almost a joke -- although admittedly it's a hard opinion to refute, because there's arguments both ways. I won't downvote out of respect and that's not what downvoting is supposed to be for -- and in fact merits a response. But I will say that for all of the US's desire to have creative kids, we pretty badly fail on bringing up basic education standards to anything close to what Japan (or other similar countries) have. I'll offer my own caricatured view on modern US public K-6 education on the other extreme -- let's have the kids discover the most rudimentary rules of math on their own because our average teacher isn't able to handle a rigorous curiculum, and muddle through the basics because it "makes them feel good"!

It's too bad that memorization - as a tool - is so readily dismissed. I think it is immensely valuable and enables one to master complex material and establish insights that would not be readily available through other means. I think its a false alternative to see it as memorization vs. creativity. I'd make the case that memorization provides a useful foundation for creativity. It enables one to command a large set of facts to then integrate them into new insights.

Grustaf 6y ago
Definitely. The most creative artists, musicians, acrobats etc are not the ones that skipped learning the basics. Only when you mastered the basics very very thoroughly can you start being creative and innovative.
- watwut 6y ago
  But, art fundamentals are not learned through rote repetition. There is a lot of practice, but it is supposed to be mindfull instead of rote and also is coupled with a lot of explanations of how things work and a lot of creative work. The usual drawing advice is complete opposite of what you suggest. Playing instrument in classical school is learned through repetition, but this schooling is not producing composers nor people able to create new music nor improvise. It makes people able to perform increasingly difficult technical pieces someone else made. That is completely different goal and schooling. Likewise, acrobats are not choreographs which is something completely different. Acrobacy does not lead to that.
  - Grustaf 6y ago
    Do you have any examples of brilliant innovative musicians that did not master the basics very thoroughly? I don’t believe the commonly repeated idea that rote learning and repetition would somehow inhibit innovation. I’m quite sure it’s the opposite. Take Rodney Mullen, by far the most innovative skater ever, he practically created new school skateboarding. He’s a machine, completely mastered old school and is extremely consistent.

Grustaf 6y ago

Except it’s not unnecessary at all, Japanese writing is fundamentally different from Latin, stroke order is crucial. And it’s probably not a coincidence that Japanese kids are among the smartest and best educated in the world.

eska 6y ago
Except for.. English. Where they score the worst out of all Asian nations.
- user982 6y ago
  Those other Asian nations also have stroke order rules for native writing. None of the apparent claims in this thread ("Stroke order stunts creativity!" "Stroke order shows/increases intelligence!" "Stroke order has negative correlation with English proficiency!") seem well-founded.
  - Grustaf 6y ago
    I don’t mean that stroke order boost intelligence, it’s not difficulty. I was talking about the japanese school system in general. Not that i think it’s perfect, but rote learning is not pointless.

supernova87a 6y ago

This is so stereotyped an opinion that it's almost a joke -- although admittedly it's a hard opinion to refute, because there's arguments both ways. I won't downvote out of respect and that's not what downvoting is supposed to be for -- and in fact merits a response. But I will say that for all of the US's desire to have creative kids, we pretty badly fail on bringing up basic education standards to anything close to what Japan (or other similar countries) have. I'll offer my own caricatured view on modern US public K-6 education on the other extreme -- let's have the kids discover the most rudimentary rules of math on their own because our average teacher isn't able to handle a rigorous curiculum, and muddle through the basics because it "makes them feel good"!