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I do care about all of the BLM movement, I really do. I can't stand racism or any other sort of hate towards minorities or any other group of people. That bein

I do care about all of the BLM movement, I really do. I can't stand racism or any other sort of hate towards minorities or any other group of people. That being said, can we please keep politics away from software development? We already have good fights to battle, and changing whitelist / blacklist or master / slave isn't really helping to the cause. This matter obviously is not only related to Rubyists, Rustaceans, Gophers or any other programmer group anyways. I don't see the point in moving politics to software: if you really want a change you should vote for better leaders and fight in different ways. I don't think anybody will ever be offended by reading "whitelist" or "master". Truth is that nowadays everybody gets offended by anything. Please, do not answer to this comment if you intend to make the discussion political. I feel that it is right to speak up for your rights, but I feel that it is best if we generally keep the discussions apolitical, whenever possible

pavel_lishin 6y ago
> I don't see the point in moving politics to software Politics are already present in software, as they are always present in all human enterprise. Saying "don't get politics in software" means "I prefer the status quo."
- PeterisP 6y ago
  No, saying "don't get politics in software" means asserting that the political influence of the name "RuboCop" is small and not significant to the project (it is significant as a signal to parties in a particular conflict that's not relevant to the project) and any discussion about it would be much ado about nothing that detracts from issues that are actually relevant to that piece of software. Intent matters. If the name was initially intentionally chosen in order to assert a political position, that would make a difference. But if someone is requiring all the world to join in this current USA internal conflict and pick sides, then that's not a reasonable demand. The RuboCop maintainer is not part of this conflict, he's neither a victim nor a cause in this long-festering USA issue, and it's his moral right to stay out of it if he so wishes. I have a preference towards the BLM side in this issue due to the appalling examples of police brutality, however, if someone on the BLM side would demand me to be "with us or against us" then I'd consider a profane refusal to be appropriate, I'm not applying for a membership in a tribe; If refusing unquestioning signals of support means that people become enemies of your tribe, well, so be it, that's just an indication of an unreasonable tribe.
acidbaseextract 6y ago
In my more paranoid moments I suspect that some of these disputes are false flags meant to discredit the social justice movement. In particular, some of the issues raised seem purpose built to piss people off without hope of achieving real inclusiveness or equality goals. That I can't tell if that's the case or not is equally alarming.
- deleted 6y ago
  [deleted]
- tvmalsv 6y ago
  I offer another option: bad actors that are taking advantage of the disputes to further their own agendas. Only, it's not an option, it's more of a documented reality. And it's even more alarming.
Cthulhu_ 6y ago
How is requesting to change hurtful or problematic names political? The public opinion on what is and is not hurtful changes over time, and you have to stick with the times. I mean you'll get fired or punched in the face if you use some of the stuff people mentioned flippantly a century ago. YOU don't think anybody will ever be offended; that's a personal opinion that you hold, but your opinion doesn't apply when SOMEONE ELSE is offended. I mean for example I'm not offended if people swear in HN, so say "fuck" and "shit" all you want, I don't care. But I'm not alone here, and there will be people who are offended and would prefer it to stay out of HN. Like how you want politics out of software development. Anyway, you say you want to keep politics out of software development, but this isn't a political issue, it's a moral issue. It's about what is right and wrong, not what the current political climate is.
- PeterisP 6y ago
  Are you asserting that "RuboCop" is an inherently immoral name? Are you asserting that it's an inherently hurtful name? I definitely believe that if there's an objective line between right and wrong, then the name "RuboCop" has not crossed that line. The name was not chosen as a signal of political support to one side in this conflict. Switching the name would be essentially just a signal of political support to the BLM movement - but IMHO it's not offensive to refuse to participate in this political signaling.
  - seek3r00 6y ago
    Indeed. I would argue that instead of changing their OSS projects names, people could donate and protest.
- luckylion 6y ago
  > The public opinion on what is and is not hurtful changes over time, and you have to stick with the times. If you "stick with the times", don't you essentially commit to do whatever the loudest, most extreme people want? Your average person doesn't care if your library is called Darth Vader, but somebody looking for outrage will declare that they are offended and you must now submit to their will because otherwise you're offensive and they will try to ruin your life. Giving in to those people is like giving in to the demands of terrorists: do it once and you will have them show up again tomorrow with more demands. > It's about what is right and wrong, not what the current political climate is. How is the name of a software library right or wrong in general? I'd follow that argument if the name was "fuck you, John Doe" or something like that. But RuboCop? Really?
whistlerbrk 6y ago
> changing whitelist / blacklist or master / slave isn't really helping to the cause. These terms amongst hundreds of others build up a mental association between blackness and wrongness. The word "black", just by itself - look a dictionary definition. In addition to the raw color is used to connote a sad event, anger, or just evil ("it was a black day", "full of anger or hatred", "very evil or wicked"). On the flipside white is used to connote purity and goodness. In the context of America we're talking about a country which favored bleached white foods to anything else for the same reason. I just don't get how people can't see the harm that is accrued from not the single example but the hundreds collectively. Also, for the record, I think changing the name of the project verges on absurd.
- seek3r00 6y ago
  I agree with your notes about the connotations of those words. Just keep in mind YMMV depending on which country you live in.
  - denysvitali 6y ago
    Indeed. I do live in Europe, therefore my view on this might be highly biased
- luckylion 6y ago
  > These terms amongst hundreds of others build up a mental association between blackness and wrongness. It would be easier to stop calling brown skin black than to make people not associate black with darkness, uncertainty and danger. Associating darkness (which is pretty much black) with death is much, much older than the US, believe it or not. People aren't racist because they read about the Black Death and figure "yeah, I guess black people are evil, look what they did to Europe in the 14th century", and you won't make them less racist if you remove the word black from language.
  - szemet 6y ago
    To show a positive example, without word redefinitions: IMHO western society largely managed to end prejudice against left-handiness, while keeping the word "right". (And this "left -> bad" or "right" -> good (or both) association is as (or more) prevalent in languages of the world as the "dark -> bad" association)
dcwca 6y ago
No, you cannot keep politics away from software development. It is not possible, and by trying to ignore issues you become complicit in perpetration.
- fsloth 6y ago
  Ignoring what issues? The police force is a respected institution in many countries, who act diligently and courteously. Trying to sell an anti-police message to an international audience is American cultural imperialism at it's worst.
  - dcwca 6y ago
    I didn’t mention the police, I’m talking about anything that offends minority groups within your community of users. By choosing to be insensitive you contribute to their plight.
    - fsloth 6y ago
      I'm sorry, I just can't agree. You shouldn't be intentionally hostile, but the web is so full of young justice warriors who are over-sensitive to everything that you can't account for all the trigger words in existence. Avoid the general pathologies - misogyny, racism, tribal prejudice - yes. Cater to regional special cases (like this instance the word cop) - no. The world is a big place. You should embrace everybody you can. This means creating a global consensus what is polite to all users. And cleaning up random trigger words because one or other local bru-ha-ha really isn't really helpful.
      - dcwca 6y ago
        You don’t have to account for all the trigger words in existence. All you have to do is believe that the people who are raising issues about specific topics are doing so from a place of need. By characterizing them as “over-sensitive”, you are indicating that you cannot or do not believe in the cause, or cannot empathize with their lived experience. If that’s the root for you, then just say it - “I'm not values aligned with this cause”. That’s totally valid. Software is political. It’s written by people, it’s used by people, and it has an impact on society. It is impossible for it to be neutral.
deleted 6y ago
[deleted]
HeyZuess 6y ago
This isn't politics, it is feelings. The word black is a label, which has a history of being used as a racist term. So it is understandable that there may be some ill will about it. Understandable, but not necessarily warranted. Now the word "cop" is a label we associate with a job, it has been around for decades, it isn't derogative (unless you as a police officer are offended by it). What we have here, is people being offended by what has happened, not by the adjective of the job.

pavel_lishin 6y ago

> I don't see the point in moving politics to software Politics are already present in software, as they are always present in all human enterprise. Saying "don't get politics in software" means "I prefer the status quo."

PeterisP 6y ago
No, saying "don't get politics in software" means asserting that the political influence of the name "RuboCop" is small and not significant to the project (it is significant as a signal to parties in a particular conflict that's not relevant to the project) and any discussion about it would be much ado about nothing that detracts from issues that are actually relevant to that piece of software. Intent matters. If the name was initially intentionally chosen in order to assert a political position, that would make a difference. But if someone is requiring all the world to join in this current USA internal conflict and pick sides, then that's not a reasonable demand. The RuboCop maintainer is not part of this conflict, he's neither a victim nor a cause in this long-festering USA issue, and it's his moral right to stay out of it if he so wishes. I have a preference towards the BLM side in this issue due to the appalling examples of police brutality, however, if someone on the BLM side would demand me to be "with us or against us" then I'd consider a profane refusal to be appropriate, I'm not applying for a membership in a tribe; If refusing unquestioning signals of support means that people become enemies of your tribe, well, so be it, that's just an indication of an unreasonable tribe.

acidbaseextract 6y ago

In my more paranoid moments I suspect that some of these disputes are false flags meant to discredit the social justice movement. In particular, some of the issues raised seem purpose built to piss people off without hope of achieving real inclusiveness or equality goals. That I can't tell if that's the case or not is equally alarming.

deleted 6y ago
[deleted]
tvmalsv 6y ago
I offer another option: bad actors that are taking advantage of the disputes to further their own agendas. Only, it's not an option, it's more of a documented reality. And it's even more alarming.

Cthulhu_ 6y ago

How is requesting to change hurtful or problematic names political? The public opinion on what is and is not hurtful changes over time, and you have to stick with the times. I mean you'll get fired or punched in the face if you use some of the stuff people mentioned flippantly a century ago. YOU don't think anybody will ever be offended; that's a personal opinion that you hold, but your opinion doesn't apply when SOMEONE ELSE is offended. I mean for example I'm not offended if people swear in HN, so say "fuck" and "shit" all you want, I don't care. But I'm not alone here, and there will be people who are offended and would prefer it to stay out of HN. Like how you want politics out of software development. Anyway, you say you want to keep politics out of software development, but this isn't a political issue, it's a moral issue. It's about what is right and wrong, not what the current political climate is.

PeterisP 6y ago
Are you asserting that "RuboCop" is an inherently immoral name? Are you asserting that it's an inherently hurtful name? I definitely believe that if there's an objective line between right and wrong, then the name "RuboCop" has not crossed that line. The name was not chosen as a signal of political support to one side in this conflict. Switching the name would be essentially just a signal of political support to the BLM movement - but IMHO it's not offensive to refuse to participate in this political signaling.
- seek3r00 6y ago
  Indeed. I would argue that instead of changing their OSS projects names, people could donate and protest.
luckylion 6y ago
> The public opinion on what is and is not hurtful changes over time, and you have to stick with the times. If you "stick with the times", don't you essentially commit to do whatever the loudest, most extreme people want? Your average person doesn't care if your library is called Darth Vader, but somebody looking for outrage will declare that they are offended and you must now submit to their will because otherwise you're offensive and they will try to ruin your life. Giving in to those people is like giving in to the demands of terrorists: do it once and you will have them show up again tomorrow with more demands. > It's about what is right and wrong, not what the current political climate is. How is the name of a software library right or wrong in general? I'd follow that argument if the name was "fuck you, John Doe" or something like that. But RuboCop? Really?

whistlerbrk 6y ago

> changing whitelist / blacklist or master / slave isn't really helping to the cause. These terms amongst hundreds of others build up a mental association between blackness and wrongness. The word "black", just by itself - look a dictionary definition. In addition to the raw color is used to connote a sad event, anger, or just evil ("it was a black day", "full of anger or hatred", "very evil or wicked"). On the flipside white is used to connote purity and goodness. In the context of America we're talking about a country which favored bleached white foods to anything else for the same reason. I just don't get how people can't see the harm that is accrued from not the single example but the hundreds collectively. Also, for the record, I think changing the name of the project verges on absurd.

seek3r00 6y ago
I agree with your notes about the connotations of those words. Just keep in mind YMMV depending on which country you live in.
- denysvitali 6y ago
  Indeed. I do live in Europe, therefore my view on this might be highly biased
luckylion 6y ago
> These terms amongst hundreds of others build up a mental association between blackness and wrongness. It would be easier to stop calling brown skin black than to make people not associate black with darkness, uncertainty and danger. Associating darkness (which is pretty much black) with death is much, much older than the US, believe it or not. People aren't racist because they read about the Black Death and figure "yeah, I guess black people are evil, look what they did to Europe in the 14th century", and you won't make them less racist if you remove the word black from language.
- szemet 6y ago
  To show a positive example, without word redefinitions: IMHO western society largely managed to end prejudice against left-handiness, while keeping the word "right". (And this "left -> bad" or "right" -> good (or both) association is as (or more) prevalent in languages of the world as the "dark -> bad" association)

dcwca 6y ago

No, you cannot keep politics away from software development. It is not possible, and by trying to ignore issues you become complicit in perpetration.

fsloth 6y ago
Ignoring what issues? The police force is a respected institution in many countries, who act diligently and courteously. Trying to sell an anti-police message to an international audience is American cultural imperialism at it's worst.
- dcwca 6y ago
  I didn’t mention the police, I’m talking about anything that offends minority groups within your community of users. By choosing to be insensitive you contribute to their plight.
  - fsloth 6y ago
    I'm sorry, I just can't agree. You shouldn't be intentionally hostile, but the web is so full of young justice warriors who are over-sensitive to everything that you can't account for all the trigger words in existence. Avoid the general pathologies - misogyny, racism, tribal prejudice - yes. Cater to regional special cases (like this instance the word cop) - no. The world is a big place. You should embrace everybody you can. This means creating a global consensus what is polite to all users. And cleaning up random trigger words because one or other local bru-ha-ha really isn't really helpful.
    - dcwca 6y ago
      You don’t have to account for all the trigger words in existence. All you have to do is believe that the people who are raising issues about specific topics are doing so from a place of need. By characterizing them as “over-sensitive”, you are indicating that you cannot or do not believe in the cause, or cannot empathize with their lived experience. If that’s the root for you, then just say it - “I'm not values aligned with this cause”. That’s totally valid. Software is political. It’s written by people, it’s used by people, and it has an impact on society. It is impossible for it to be neutral.

deleted 6y ago

[deleted]

HeyZuess 6y ago

This isn't politics, it is feelings. The word black is a label, which has a history of being used as a racist term. So it is understandable that there may be some ill will about it. Understandable, but not necessarily warranted. Now the word "cop" is a label we associate with a job, it has been around for decades, it isn't derogative (unless you as a police officer are offended by it). What we have here, is people being offended by what has happened, not by the adjective of the job.