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The idea is to close it and not replace it. The only tool in the police toolbox is violence; despite this, they have become catchall first responders despite be

The idea is to close it and not replace it. The only tool in the police toolbox is violence; despite this, they have become catchall first responders despite being wholly unequipped for most scenarios. We should treat drug use and mental illness as public health issues. We should treat homelessness by housing and feeding those who want help. We should treat domestic disputes with social work. These are complex issues that deserve specialized responses.

deleted 6y ago
[deleted]
andi999 6y ago
Let me get this right: so no police in that city? Seriously?
- jakelazaroff 6y ago
  Yes. Why is this crazy? There’s no natural law that says a society needs a police force as it exists today. Police in the US have only existed since the mid–1800s. In the South, they rose from the ashes of runaway slave patrols; in the North, they were created to quell labor organizing [0]. So the issue is that police as we know it today is intrinsically racist and classist, and we need to entirely reimagine it. [0] https://time.com/4779112/police-history-origins/ https://time.com/4779112/police-history-origins/
  - andi999 6y ago
    This is just a perspective from a foreign country. My worry would be would I trust armed neighbourhood vigilantes more than the regular police. I dont know enough about the US, but do you think that would be better?
Yetanfou 6y ago
How are you going to treat violent crime? What are you going to do about street gangs? No amount of social work, hand-holding or counselling will get at those.
- jakelazaroff 6y ago
  This is not entirely true. Why do people join gangs in the first place? They feel outcast, need money, feel pressured, etc. So let’s tackle those problems proactively. Invest in neighborhoods. Make sure there is economic opportunity. Provide ways for people to feel accepted by their community. The point is to try to stop these things before they become problems, rather than only deal with them punitively under threat of violence. Of course violent crime will still exist. But we’re not even dealing with that particularly well today: half of all homicides in Minneapolis went unsolved last year [0]. The actual solution might not look anything like policing as we know it today. [0] https://www.startribune.com/as-homicides-rise-minneapolis-police-solve-half-of-all-killings/565618672/ https://www.startribune.com/as-homicides-rise-minneapolis-po...
  - JoeAltmaier 6y ago
    Curiously, those efforts sound very like recruiting for a gang. You'd have to beat them at their own game. As they add the threat of violence, it could be a hard sell.
    - jakelazaroff 6y ago
      Providing community services and job opportunities sounds like recruiting for a gang?
      - JoeAltmaier 6y ago
        "Accepted by their community", where the community is the gang. Economic opportunity - gangs can provide that too.
  - Yetanfou 6y ago
    They've tried these things here in Sweden, for decades. It has not worked, the opposite is true. Economic opportunity sounds nice but the 'economic opportunity' of robbing someone who made use of that economic opportunity and in such a way get the spoils without doing the toils keeps on winning out for some, no matter how many programs are created, how many youth centres are built, no matter how many integration programs are started. As to whether it is the lure of easy money, the false glamour of the bling-bling lifestyle as glorified by a significant part of rap and hip-hop artists, the 'rebel against the prevailing culture' attitude which permeates large areas or some other factor, something keeps on pulling increasing numbers of young boys and girls into crime. Ineffective policing may be part of it, an alarmingly low number of violent crimes is solved here - ~10% of murders and violent crimes (the categories are combined in the report), %19% of sex crime including rape, ~6% of robberies and theft going all the way down to ~0.5% of bicycle theft cases [1,2]. The trend for the percentage of solved crimes has been going down for a very long time now so things are not improving, at all. [1] https://www.bra.se/download/18.7d27ebd916ea64de5304de44/1585639780979/Sammanfattning_handlagda_2019.pdf https://www.bra.se/download/18.7d27ebd916ea64de5304de44/1585... [2] https://www.bra.se/download/18.cba82f7130f475a2f1800010674/1371914726382/2006_4_kriminalstatistik_2005.pdf https://www.bra.se/download/18.cba82f7130f475a2f1800010674/1...

deleted 6y ago

[deleted]

andi999 6y ago

Let me get this right: so no police in that city? Seriously?

jakelazaroff 6y ago
Yes. Why is this crazy? There’s no natural law that says a society needs a police force as it exists today. Police in the US have only existed since the mid–1800s. In the South, they rose from the ashes of runaway slave patrols; in the North, they were created to quell labor organizing [0]. So the issue is that police as we know it today is intrinsically racist and classist, and we need to entirely reimagine it. [0] https://time.com/4779112/police-history-origins/ https://time.com/4779112/police-history-origins/
- andi999 6y ago
  This is just a perspective from a foreign country. My worry would be would I trust armed neighbourhood vigilantes more than the regular police. I dont know enough about the US, but do you think that would be better?

Yetanfou 6y ago

How are you going to treat violent crime? What are you going to do about street gangs? No amount of social work, hand-holding or counselling will get at those.

jakelazaroff 6y ago
This is not entirely true. Why do people join gangs in the first place? They feel outcast, need money, feel pressured, etc. So let’s tackle those problems proactively. Invest in neighborhoods. Make sure there is economic opportunity. Provide ways for people to feel accepted by their community. The point is to try to stop these things before they become problems, rather than only deal with them punitively under threat of violence. Of course violent crime will still exist. But we’re not even dealing with that particularly well today: half of all homicides in Minneapolis went unsolved last year [0]. The actual solution might not look anything like policing as we know it today. [0] https://www.startribune.com/as-homicides-rise-minneapolis-police-solve-half-of-all-killings/565618672/ https://www.startribune.com/as-homicides-rise-minneapolis-po...
- JoeAltmaier 6y ago
  Curiously, those efforts sound very like recruiting for a gang. You'd have to beat them at their own game. As they add the threat of violence, it could be a hard sell.
  - jakelazaroff 6y ago
    Providing community services and job opportunities sounds like recruiting for a gang?
    - JoeAltmaier 6y ago
      "Accepted by their community", where the community is the gang. Economic opportunity - gangs can provide that too.
- Yetanfou 6y ago
  They've tried these things here in Sweden, for decades. It has not worked, the opposite is true. Economic opportunity sounds nice but the 'economic opportunity' of robbing someone who made use of that economic opportunity and in such a way get the spoils without doing the toils keeps on winning out for some, no matter how many programs are created, how many youth centres are built, no matter how many integration programs are started. As to whether it is the lure of easy money, the false glamour of the bling-bling lifestyle as glorified by a significant part of rap and hip-hop artists, the 'rebel against the prevailing culture' attitude which permeates large areas or some other factor, something keeps on pulling increasing numbers of young boys and girls into crime. Ineffective policing may be part of it, an alarmingly low number of violent crimes is solved here - ~10% of murders and violent crimes (the categories are combined in the report), %19% of sex crime including rape, ~6% of robberies and theft going all the way down to ~0.5% of bicycle theft cases [1,2]. The trend for the percentage of solved crimes has been going down for a very long time now so things are not improving, at all. [1] https://www.bra.se/download/18.7d27ebd916ea64de5304de44/1585639780979/Sammanfattning_handlagda_2019.pdf https://www.bra.se/download/18.7d27ebd916ea64de5304de44/1585... [2] https://www.bra.se/download/18.cba82f7130f475a2f1800010674/1371914726382/2006_4_kriminalstatistik_2005.pdf https://www.bra.se/download/18.cba82f7130f475a2f1800010674/1...