4 ms·

My sense is that most (but not all) of the people cheering this on are like you. They don't live there, they have no family there, and they have no ties to the

My sense is that most (but not all) of the people cheering this on are like you. They don't live there, they have no family there, and they have no ties to the city or the state. Spoke with a childhood friend last night, and he's leaving the city and moving to Minnetonka once his lease is up in August. Everyone else he knows is doing something similar. Obviously this is all anecdotal, and like you said we get to watch a massive experiment play out in real time. With the advent of more virtual work, people are going to bail on places where they see risk as too high. I don't live there anymore, was born in Iowa, but grew up in Minneapolis and moved there when I was 5. People, especially in tech it seems, have an element of optimism that's useful in most situations. I don't share that in this case. We've approached a sort of social contagion where if you don't support the most extreme positions you are shamed (literally, like the Mayor was).

xenihn 6y ago
I feel this way about San Francisco. I'm getting out this month, and I'm not coming back until I have to. I can leave without a COL salary adjustment so long as I stay in the state. I imagine lots of other people are doing the same thing as me. There's little point to staying in the city as a renter if you don't have to go into the office. There's almost no point in staying if you can't go into the office, even if you wanted to. We're also helping out everyone else by leaving if you think about it. Landlords will be forced to reduced rents even further for the people who can't leave but don't qualify for aid, and aren't lucky enough to be in a rent-controlled unit.
spamizbad 6y ago
It’s interesting that we never consider the status quo to ever be an extreme. Perhaps part of why these root-to-branch efforts seem so extreme is because the Overton window has been shifted so far to the right wrt Criminal Justice we’ve lost perspective. American policing is not exactly a shining beacon of civil achievement. It has a long history of being both problematic and largely ineffectual at establishing law & order within the confines of the US constitution. When violent crime started dropping precipitously in the 90s researchers scrambled to figure out the recipe so it could be repeated and amplified. Ultimately they came up empty handed. Interestingly, the Environmental Lead Hypothesis emerged as a likely cause (especially because the pattern can be seen across different countries, cultures, and criminal justice systems) but does have its own share of detractors. But regardless, we don’t actually have solid evidence our current approach to law & order is even effective. It’s largely a faith-based system. And it’s performance is abysmal... So we should be open to “radical” change as micro-optimizations aren’t going to help us here.
- daodedickinson 6y ago
  The Overton Window is as far left as it ever has been such that drug possession is becoming more decriminalized, sentencing and bail reforms have recently passed, and body cameras are more prevalent than ever before. Reduced policing in Baltimore after Freddy Gray's death has led to more than 100 extra murders of black men per year.
  - spamizbad 6y ago
    Baltimore police have willfully chosen to disengage with community policing. There was no real “reduction in policing”. Their budget has also risen by about $60 million since Freddy Gray. No real change in department culture other than low officer morale. This is an example of the more “moderate” police reform in action: no fundamental change to police structure, just some new training and procedures. It didnt work. Officers hate it so they pouted and disengaged.
leanstartupnoob 6y ago
I still live in Minneapolis and most people that I know want to stay. Everyone who watched the video knows George Floyd was murdered, but the MPD and its union still want to fight their termination and all charges. MPD response to protesters has been incompetent, callous, and malicious. The majority of MPD are suburban Trump supporters and like all Trump supporters they can't stand progressive places like Minneapolis. The last straw for me was when the MPD police arrested a reporter in broad daylight on live TV.
- spamizbad 6y ago
  Cities live and die based on those with real roots in the city. Which is why it’s largely not worthwhile to shape city policy on the desire of “tourists” who are either transient or “if 1 bad thing I don’t like happens I’m leaving immediately”
- remarkEon 6y ago
  All public sector unions should be banned, I'm not going to fight you on that one. But, again, I just don't share this optimism. >The majority of MPD are suburban Trump supporters and like all Trump supporters they can't stand progressive places like Minneapolis. Maybe things have changed since I moved away in 2013, but this wasn't true back then. Both parents of one of my classmates in elementary school were cops and lived in South Minneapolis. If it is true today, that seems to suggest an interesting selection bias no? Either MPD only hires surburban Trump supporters or only these suburban Trump supporters want to sign up to be cops in the city. In either case, and like I mentioned above, we get to watch a neat little experiment play out in real time if we're going to disband the MPD and rebuild it.
  - gsk22 6y ago
    It was true, even back then. In 2015, only 5.4% of the MPD lived within city limits. [1] This isn't a recent change, and IMO it's a major driver of the "occupier"/"us vs them" mindset many cops in the MPD appear to have. (example: [2]) [1] https://www.mprnews.org/story/2015/03/20/police-officer-residency https://www.mprnews.org/story/2015/03/20/police-officer-resi... [2] http://www.citypages.com/news/minneapolis-police-officer-urges-looting-of-cedar-riverside-arresting-press/571046391 http://www.citypages.com/news/minneapolis-police-officer-urg...

xenihn 6y ago

I feel this way about San Francisco. I'm getting out this month, and I'm not coming back until I have to. I can leave without a COL salary adjustment so long as I stay in the state. I imagine lots of other people are doing the same thing as me. There's little point to staying in the city as a renter if you don't have to go into the office. There's almost no point in staying if you can't go into the office, even if you wanted to. We're also helping out everyone else by leaving if you think about it. Landlords will be forced to reduced rents even further for the people who can't leave but don't qualify for aid, and aren't lucky enough to be in a rent-controlled unit.

spamizbad 6y ago

It’s interesting that we never consider the status quo to ever be an extreme. Perhaps part of why these root-to-branch efforts seem so extreme is because the Overton window has been shifted so far to the right wrt Criminal Justice we’ve lost perspective. American policing is not exactly a shining beacon of civil achievement. It has a long history of being both problematic and largely ineffectual at establishing law & order within the confines of the US constitution. When violent crime started dropping precipitously in the 90s researchers scrambled to figure out the recipe so it could be repeated and amplified. Ultimately they came up empty handed. Interestingly, the Environmental Lead Hypothesis emerged as a likely cause (especially because the pattern can be seen across different countries, cultures, and criminal justice systems) but does have its own share of detractors. But regardless, we don’t actually have solid evidence our current approach to law & order is even effective. It’s largely a faith-based system. And it’s performance is abysmal... So we should be open to “radical” change as micro-optimizations aren’t going to help us here.

daodedickinson 6y ago
The Overton Window is as far left as it ever has been such that drug possession is becoming more decriminalized, sentencing and bail reforms have recently passed, and body cameras are more prevalent than ever before. Reduced policing in Baltimore after Freddy Gray's death has led to more than 100 extra murders of black men per year.
- spamizbad 6y ago
  Baltimore police have willfully chosen to disengage with community policing. There was no real “reduction in policing”. Their budget has also risen by about $60 million since Freddy Gray. No real change in department culture other than low officer morale. This is an example of the more “moderate” police reform in action: no fundamental change to police structure, just some new training and procedures. It didnt work. Officers hate it so they pouted and disengaged.

leanstartupnoob 6y ago

I still live in Minneapolis and most people that I know want to stay. Everyone who watched the video knows George Floyd was murdered, but the MPD and its union still want to fight their termination and all charges. MPD response to protesters has been incompetent, callous, and malicious. The majority of MPD are suburban Trump supporters and like all Trump supporters they can't stand progressive places like Minneapolis. The last straw for me was when the MPD police arrested a reporter in broad daylight on live TV.

spamizbad 6y ago
Cities live and die based on those with real roots in the city. Which is why it’s largely not worthwhile to shape city policy on the desire of “tourists” who are either transient or “if 1 bad thing I don’t like happens I’m leaving immediately”
remarkEon 6y ago
All public sector unions should be banned, I'm not going to fight you on that one. But, again, I just don't share this optimism. >The majority of MPD are suburban Trump supporters and like all Trump supporters they can't stand progressive places like Minneapolis. Maybe things have changed since I moved away in 2013, but this wasn't true back then. Both parents of one of my classmates in elementary school were cops and lived in South Minneapolis. If it is true today, that seems to suggest an interesting selection bias no? Either MPD only hires surburban Trump supporters or only these suburban Trump supporters want to sign up to be cops in the city. In either case, and like I mentioned above, we get to watch a neat little experiment play out in real time if we're going to disband the MPD and rebuild it.
- gsk22 6y ago
  It was true, even back then. In 2015, only 5.4% of the MPD lived within city limits. [1] This isn't a recent change, and IMO it's a major driver of the "occupier"/"us vs them" mindset many cops in the MPD appear to have. (example: [2]) [1] https://www.mprnews.org/story/2015/03/20/police-officer-residency https://www.mprnews.org/story/2015/03/20/police-officer-resi... [2] http://www.citypages.com/news/minneapolis-police-officer-urges-looting-of-cedar-riverside-arresting-press/571046391 http://www.citypages.com/news/minneapolis-police-officer-urg...