15 ms·

Largest Known Maya Structure Found

272 points by dsavant 6y ago

xhkkffbf 6y ago
Aliens.
- dang 6y ago
  https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=23436526 https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=23436526
  - xhkkffbf 6y ago
    It was neither shallow nor snarky. That's just your projection upon it. I think it's merely pithy and direct. You make it sound like posters should write some epic multi-paragraph thumbsucker and then add a tl;dr to the top. No need for a tl;dr with mine.
    - KKPMW 6y ago
      I am not sure if you are aware, but you replied to one of a few HN moderators. > You make it sound like posters should write some epic multi-paragraph thumbsucker He doesn't 'sound' like it. He enforces the rules about how it should be. And I agree with the judgement - the comment he replied to had no real substance. It's a kind of thing you post on a reddit meme thread as a first comment in order to accumulate "likes".
      - xhkkffbf 6y ago
        Oooh. More words == real substance? Nope. One of my best friends likes to just say "facts" when he agrees with something. If you study Shannon's information theory, you'll find that using more characters doesn't mean there's more entropy in your bit stream.
    - therealdrag0 6y ago
      “Aliens” sure doesn’t sound like a serious comment about the posted article. And if you feel like it is, then yes, you have a lot of explaining to do.
      - xhkkffbf 6y ago
        I think there's not much evidence of extra-terrestrial intelligence and what exists is rather incomplete, but it sure makes more sense to me than there was some massive slave economy that wasted all of that slave labor moving big rocks. Remember all of those slaves had to eat. So every calorie expended pushing those rocks into place had to be raised by an even bigger team of farming slaves who also had to eat. The cost in calories to raise those rocks is staggering. But you can go on dismissing this conclusion as flippant. It's not like anyone will ever really know because the security cameras weren't turned back then.
        therealdrag0 6y ago
        One thing to consider is this didn’t have to me made in a short time frame. Just like cathedrals have been built over hundreds of years so could these structures.
    - dang 6y ago
      A one-word comment referencing an extremely sensational theme clearly is shallow. Even if it was rooted in deep thought on your part, that's a distinction without a difference, because the issue is the effects on the future thread (https://hn.algolia.com/?dateRange=all&page=0&prefix=true&query=by%3Adang%20%22expected%20value%22&sort=byDate&type=comment https://hn.algolia.com/?dateRange=all&page=0&prefix=true&que...).
      - xhkkffbf 6y ago
        How do you feel about people in the streets with signs that just say, "BLM?" They don't even use a full word. Mark Twain once said: The difference between the right word and the almost right word is the difference between lightning and a lightning bug. It sounds like you just don't want people discussing aliens. Sorry, but I think that massive construction projects like that are best explained with extraterristrial assistance. I wish I had lots of data to bolster this opinion, but I don't. If someone could prove a negative, I would listen but we just don't know. So that's why I think a one word thesis statement is best.
        dang 6y ago
        Please stop.
dang 6y ago
Url changed from https://abcnews.go.com/Technology/researchers-find-3000-year-maya-structure-larger-pyramids/story?id=71095913 https://abcnews.go.com/Technology/researchers-find-3000-year..., which points to this, which doesn't have an autoplaying video.
meddlepal 6y ago
It's kind of impressive they accomplished so much without inventing the wheel... or has that been debunked and is just long outdated information?
- elboru 6y ago
  Some wheeled toys have been found in Mexico, it’s not like the wheel was never invented. But The Americas didn’t have domesticable large animals that could be used to pull wheeled carriages (bisons were not domesticated at the time), that’s why the wheel was never used for that purpose. Indeed it’s very impressive how much they accomplished by themselves without the wheel, without big domesticated animals and without contact with other civilizations.
  - monadic2 6y ago
    Furthermore the land in southeast mexico is very hilly, and when it's not, it's often swampy or waterlogged (or was at the time of the maya). It's certainly more straightforward to use barges. Related, I very much recommend the book "Mexico: From the Olmecs to the Aztecs".
    - autocorr 6y ago
      I second this book too, it's a great introduction to Mesoamerican civilization. The author, Michael D. Coe, also has another excellent book "Breaking the Maya Code" on the decipherment of the Maya glyphs The fundamentals were done in 1950-60's by Knorozov and Proskouriakoff, but the decipherment was only widely accepted until as recently as the 1970's[1]! [1] https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Maya_script#Decipherment https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Maya_script#Decipherment
      - ncmncm 6y ago
        Apparently Richard Feynman made fundamental contributions, being more numerate than your average archaeologist.
  - vkou 6y ago
latortuga 6y ago
There's a show on Netflix I think, called Lost Cities that uses Lidar in this way.
- choxi 6y ago
  Nice. In case anyone else is looking, I guess it's moved to Amazon: https://www.amazon.com/Lost-Cities-Albert-Lin-Season/dp/B07YT18RWS https://www.amazon.com/Lost-Cities-Albert-Lin-Season/dp/B07Y...
  - Wubdidu 6y ago
    Streaming seems to be free on Disney+ Edit: Well, not in Germany. Not that they state that on their landing page for the show or anything. Sigh.
- colordrops 6y ago
  Speaking of Lost Cities, I've been watching the 80s cartoon Mysterious Cities of Gold with my kids. Highly recommended. It's a lost gem about the time of conquistadors in southern and central America - well written for a kids show, entertaining for adults, continuous story arc like modern shows, and a nice mix of history and science fiction.
  - stevekemp 6y ago
    I remember watching (and loving) that as a child, and it was only somewhat recently that I learned it was inspired upon a book: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/The_King%27s_Fifth https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/The_King%27s_Fifth Not a great read, but I was certainly feeling nostalgic when I finished it.
    - JoeDaDude 6y ago
      Here is a write up about the history behind The Mysterious Cities of Gold: http://jeffzurita.com/2019/05/19/estevan-and-the-cities-of-gold/ http://jeffzurita.com/2019/05/19/estevan-and-the-cities-of-g...
nsajko 6y ago
> Abstract: Archaeologists have traditionally thought that the development of Maya civilization was gradual, assuming that small villages began to emerge during the Middle Preclassic period (1000–350 BC; dates are calibrated throughout) along with the use of ceramics and the adoption of sedentism1. Recent finds of early ceremonial complexes are beginning to challenge this model. Here we describe an airborne lidar survey and excavations of the previously unknown site of Aguada Fénix (Tabasco, Mexico) with an artificial plateau, which measures 1,400 m in length and 10 to 15 m in height and has 9 causeways radiating out from it. We dated this construction to between 1000 and 800 BC using a Bayesian analysis of radiocarbon dates. To our knowledge, this is the oldest monumental construction ever found in the Maya area and the largest in the entire pre-Hispanic history of the region. Although the site exhibits some similarities to the earlier Olmec centre of San Lorenzo, the community of Aguada Fénix probably did not have marked social inequality comparable to that of San Lorenzo. Aguada Fénix and other ceremonial complexes of the same period suggest the importance of communal work in the initial development of Maya civilization. The "the community of Aguada Fénix probably did not have marked social inequality comparable to that of San Lorenzo" claim seems to be explained by: > It is also likely that social inequality at Aguada Fénix was not as pronounced as at San Lorenzo and La Venta. Unlike those Olmec centres, Aguada Fénix does not exhibit clear indicators of marked social inequality, such as sculptures representing high-status individuals. The only stone sculpture found so far at Aguada Fénix depicts an animal (Extended Data Fig. 10). This seems like a stretch to me considering the excavation is not complete (?), but at least the limestone peccary was named 'Choco' :) > Cache AF1, found in operation AF1D. It contained a limestone sculpture—possibly representing a white-lipped peccary—that we named ‘Choco’. Free to access images (the maps at the beginning and the artifacts at the end are the most interesting to a layman like me): https://www.nature.com/articles/s41586-020-2343-4#Sec15 https://www.nature.com/articles/s41586-020-2343-4#Sec15 DOI: https://doi.org/10.1038/s41586-020-2343-4 https://doi.org/10.1038/s41586-020-2343-4 Placement within Mexico for context: https://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/commons/b/b1/Tabasco_in_Mexico_%28location_map_scheme%29.svg https://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/commons/b/b1/Tabasco_...
spaced-out 6y ago
It's tragic how little we know about the Maya compared to what we could have known. Thousands of books were destroyed, primarily by one Spanish bishop, and only four survive today[1]. If that hadn't of happened, it's possible we could have known as much about the Maya as we do about the Ancient Greeks. 1. https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Maya_codices https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Maya_codices
- jcranmer 6y ago
  The Mayans did leave lots of stelae around, and recorded a wealth of chronological information on them using a rather precise calendrical system. Consequently, we actually know more about the Classical Maya than contemporary Europe in this regard, the latter being in the midst of the Dark Ages.
  - helloooooooo 6y ago
    If anyone wants a good primer on pre-Columbian America, read 1491 by Charles Mann.
  - 29athrowaway 6y ago
    By the end of the 15th century, there were paper mills in Europe but paper was still not very commonly used. Instead, people used parchments/vellum (animal skins) as writing material. You cannot have vast libraries with books made from animal skins.
- deleted 6y ago
  [deleted]
- hymnsfm 6y ago
  I suggest reading the Book of Mormon. It's a fascinating record of the peoples of ancient America, specifically the Nephites, Lamanites and Jaredites. Where these civilizations lived and fought (there are lots of battles in the book) is uncertain, but it's believed to be mainly Central and South America. Keep in mind that The Book of Mormon is a primarily a spiritual book: another testament of Jesus Christ. The Lord expects readers to accept the book on faith. When the time is right, the Spirit will testify of its truthfulness and the Lord will bring forth further evidence. For some, this recent discovery is further evidence.
coolreader18 6y ago
I unironically thought this was about Maya the 3d modelling software when I first read the headline, like that the maximum size limit for a Maya model had been found out or something like that. ️ Very interesting article though!
29athrowaway 6y ago
What many people do not know is that the Maya are still around, mostly in Guatemala. There's a recent movie about the challenges affecting modern Mayans called Ixcanul, watch it if you can.
- anthonypasq 6y ago
  huh? Nearly every southern Mexican is Mayan.
  - 29athrowaway 6y ago
    Guatemala has ~40% of the total Maya population so that makes sense. Are the Maya communities in Mexico still speaking Maya languages?
    - josephmosby 6y ago
      Yes! The biggest community is in Yucatan with over 800K speakers: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Mayan_languages#:~:text=Yucatec%20Maya%20(known%20simply%20as,of%20Quintana%20Roo%20and%20Campeche https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Mayan_languages#:~:text=Yucate....
baxtr 6y ago
I once visited a Maya site in the Jungle, off the beaten path, away from the usual tourist site. It was probably the most amazing experience I've ever had. It was almost magical.
gshdg 6y ago
The consistent underestimation of the capabilities and development of historic indigenous peoples outside Europe and the Middle East is both absurd and tragic. You’d think that by now archaeologists might have adjusted their assumptions.
stinos 6y ago
Again shows what you can do with lidar images. I'm not sure how widely they are publicly available but if you can get lidar footage of an area you (think) you know definitely check it out. There's a lot of man-made things to discover. E.g. here's a little story from my area: we were on a walk once and someone pointed to a certain plant which is known to only thrive on very limey soil. And acoording to her used in the past by people as indicator for figuring out where they could get lime for making mortar. Nothing special to see though. A couple of months later, unrelated, a geologist showed lidar images of that area and in a spot close to where said plant was found, there was obvisouly a quite huge round sink in the terrain. Turns out this was once, many centuries ago, essentially a lime mine (which the geologist knew because of history). Nice how history, biology, geology can all come together like that. Yet if you don't know it it's pretty much invisible. Sattelite also doesn't give even the slightest hint. But with a height model and applying some shade it suddenly becomes quite obvious.

272 points by dsavant 6y ago

xhkkffbf 6y ago

Aliens.

dang 6y ago
https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=23436526 https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=23436526
- xhkkffbf 6y ago
  It was neither shallow nor snarky. That's just your projection upon it. I think it's merely pithy and direct. You make it sound like posters should write some epic multi-paragraph thumbsucker and then add a tl;dr to the top. No need for a tl;dr with mine.
  - KKPMW 6y ago
    I am not sure if you are aware, but you replied to one of a few HN moderators. > You make it sound like posters should write some epic multi-paragraph thumbsucker He doesn't 'sound' like it. He enforces the rules about how it should be. And I agree with the judgement - the comment he replied to had no real substance. It's a kind of thing you post on a reddit meme thread as a first comment in order to accumulate "likes".
    - xhkkffbf 6y ago
      Oooh. More words == real substance? Nope. One of my best friends likes to just say "facts" when he agrees with something. If you study Shannon's information theory, you'll find that using more characters doesn't mean there's more entropy in your bit stream.
  - therealdrag0 6y ago
    “Aliens” sure doesn’t sound like a serious comment about the posted article. And if you feel like it is, then yes, you have a lot of explaining to do.
    - xhkkffbf 6y ago
      I think there's not much evidence of extra-terrestrial intelligence and what exists is rather incomplete, but it sure makes more sense to me than there was some massive slave economy that wasted all of that slave labor moving big rocks. Remember all of those slaves had to eat. So every calorie expended pushing those rocks into place had to be raised by an even bigger team of farming slaves who also had to eat. The cost in calories to raise those rocks is staggering. But you can go on dismissing this conclusion as flippant. It's not like anyone will ever really know because the security cameras weren't turned back then.
      - therealdrag0 6y ago
        One thing to consider is this didn’t have to me made in a short time frame. Just like cathedrals have been built over hundreds of years so could these structures.
  - dang 6y ago
    A one-word comment referencing an extremely sensational theme clearly is shallow. Even if it was rooted in deep thought on your part, that's a distinction without a difference, because the issue is the effects on the future thread (https://hn.algolia.com/?dateRange=all&page=0&prefix=true&query=by%3Adang%20%22expected%20value%22&sort=byDate&type=comment https://hn.algolia.com/?dateRange=all&page=0&prefix=true&que...).
    - xhkkffbf 6y ago
      How do you feel about people in the streets with signs that just say, "BLM?" They don't even use a full word. Mark Twain once said: The difference between the right word and the almost right word is the difference between lightning and a lightning bug. It sounds like you just don't want people discussing aliens. Sorry, but I think that massive construction projects like that are best explained with extraterristrial assistance. I wish I had lots of data to bolster this opinion, but I don't. If someone could prove a negative, I would listen but we just don't know. So that's why I think a one word thesis statement is best.
      - dang 6y ago
        Please stop.

dang 6y ago

Url changed from https://abcnews.go.com/Technology/researchers-find-3000-year-maya-structure-larger-pyramids/story?id=71095913 https://abcnews.go.com/Technology/researchers-find-3000-year..., which points to this, which doesn't have an autoplaying video.

meddlepal 6y ago

It's kind of impressive they accomplished so much without inventing the wheel... or has that been debunked and is just long outdated information?

elboru 6y ago
Some wheeled toys have been found in Mexico, it’s not like the wheel was never invented. But The Americas didn’t have domesticable large animals that could be used to pull wheeled carriages (bisons were not domesticated at the time), that’s why the wheel was never used for that purpose. Indeed it’s very impressive how much they accomplished by themselves without the wheel, without big domesticated animals and without contact with other civilizations.
- monadic2 6y ago
  Furthermore the land in southeast mexico is very hilly, and when it's not, it's often swampy or waterlogged (or was at the time of the maya). It's certainly more straightforward to use barges. Related, I very much recommend the book "Mexico: From the Olmecs to the Aztecs".
  - autocorr 6y ago
    I second this book too, it's a great introduction to Mesoamerican civilization. The author, Michael D. Coe, also has another excellent book "Breaking the Maya Code" on the decipherment of the Maya glyphs The fundamentals were done in 1950-60's by Knorozov and Proskouriakoff, but the decipherment was only widely accepted until as recently as the 1970's[1]! [1] https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Maya_script#Decipherment https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Maya_script#Decipherment
    - ncmncm 6y ago
      Apparently Richard Feynman made fundamental contributions, being more numerate than your average archaeologist.
- vkou 6y ago

latortuga 6y ago

There's a show on Netflix I think, called Lost Cities that uses Lidar in this way.

choxi 6y ago
Nice. In case anyone else is looking, I guess it's moved to Amazon: https://www.amazon.com/Lost-Cities-Albert-Lin-Season/dp/B07YT18RWS https://www.amazon.com/Lost-Cities-Albert-Lin-Season/dp/B07Y...
- Wubdidu 6y ago
  Streaming seems to be free on Disney+ Edit: Well, not in Germany. Not that they state that on their landing page for the show or anything. Sigh.
colordrops 6y ago
Speaking of Lost Cities, I've been watching the 80s cartoon Mysterious Cities of Gold with my kids. Highly recommended. It's a lost gem about the time of conquistadors in southern and central America - well written for a kids show, entertaining for adults, continuous story arc like modern shows, and a nice mix of history and science fiction.
- stevekemp 6y ago
  I remember watching (and loving) that as a child, and it was only somewhat recently that I learned it was inspired upon a book: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/The_King%27s_Fifth https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/The_King%27s_Fifth Not a great read, but I was certainly feeling nostalgic when I finished it.
  - JoeDaDude 6y ago
    Here is a write up about the history behind The Mysterious Cities of Gold: http://jeffzurita.com/2019/05/19/estevan-and-the-cities-of-gold/ http://jeffzurita.com/2019/05/19/estevan-and-the-cities-of-g...

nsajko 6y ago

> Abstract: Archaeologists have traditionally thought that the development of Maya civilization was gradual, assuming that small villages began to emerge during the Middle Preclassic period (1000–350 BC; dates are calibrated throughout) along with the use of ceramics and the adoption of sedentism1. Recent finds of early ceremonial complexes are beginning to challenge this model. Here we describe an airborne lidar survey and excavations of the previously unknown site of Aguada Fénix (Tabasco, Mexico) with an artificial plateau, which measures 1,400 m in length and 10 to 15 m in height and has 9 causeways radiating out from it. We dated this construction to between 1000 and 800 BC using a Bayesian analysis of radiocarbon dates. To our knowledge, this is the oldest monumental construction ever found in the Maya area and the largest in the entire pre-Hispanic history of the region. Although the site exhibits some similarities to the earlier Olmec centre of San Lorenzo, the community of Aguada Fénix probably did not have marked social inequality comparable to that of San Lorenzo. Aguada Fénix and other ceremonial complexes of the same period suggest the importance of communal work in the initial development of Maya civilization. The "the community of Aguada Fénix probably did not have marked social inequality comparable to that of San Lorenzo" claim seems to be explained by: > It is also likely that social inequality at Aguada Fénix was not as pronounced as at San Lorenzo and La Venta. Unlike those Olmec centres, Aguada Fénix does not exhibit clear indicators of marked social inequality, such as sculptures representing high-status individuals. The only stone sculpture found so far at Aguada Fénix depicts an animal (Extended Data Fig. 10). This seems like a stretch to me considering the excavation is not complete (?), but at least the limestone peccary was named 'Choco' :) > Cache AF1, found in operation AF1D. It contained a limestone sculpture—possibly representing a white-lipped peccary—that we named ‘Choco’. Free to access images (the maps at the beginning and the artifacts at the end are the most interesting to a layman like me): https://www.nature.com/articles/s41586-020-2343-4#Sec15 https://www.nature.com/articles/s41586-020-2343-4#Sec15 DOI: https://doi.org/10.1038/s41586-020-2343-4 https://doi.org/10.1038/s41586-020-2343-4 Placement within Mexico for context: https://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/commons/b/b1/Tabasco_in_Mexico_%28location_map_scheme%29.svg https://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/commons/b/b1/Tabasco_...

spaced-out 6y ago

It's tragic how little we know about the Maya compared to what we could have known. Thousands of books were destroyed, primarily by one Spanish bishop, and only four survive today[1]. If that hadn't of happened, it's possible we could have known as much about the Maya as we do about the Ancient Greeks. 1. https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Maya_codices https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Maya_codices

jcranmer 6y ago
The Mayans did leave lots of stelae around, and recorded a wealth of chronological information on them using a rather precise calendrical system. Consequently, we actually know more about the Classical Maya than contemporary Europe in this regard, the latter being in the midst of the Dark Ages.
- helloooooooo 6y ago
  If anyone wants a good primer on pre-Columbian America, read 1491 by Charles Mann.
- 29athrowaway 6y ago
  By the end of the 15th century, there were paper mills in Europe but paper was still not very commonly used. Instead, people used parchments/vellum (animal skins) as writing material. You cannot have vast libraries with books made from animal skins.
deleted 6y ago
[deleted]
hymnsfm 6y ago
I suggest reading the Book of Mormon. It's a fascinating record of the peoples of ancient America, specifically the Nephites, Lamanites and Jaredites. Where these civilizations lived and fought (there are lots of battles in the book) is uncertain, but it's believed to be mainly Central and South America. Keep in mind that The Book of Mormon is a primarily a spiritual book: another testament of Jesus Christ. The Lord expects readers to accept the book on faith. When the time is right, the Spirit will testify of its truthfulness and the Lord will bring forth further evidence. For some, this recent discovery is further evidence.

coolreader18 6y ago

I unironically thought this was about Maya the 3d modelling software when I first read the headline, like that the maximum size limit for a Maya model had been found out or something like that. ️ Very interesting article though!

29athrowaway 6y ago

What many people do not know is that the Maya are still around, mostly in Guatemala. There's a recent movie about the challenges affecting modern Mayans called Ixcanul, watch it if you can.

anthonypasq 6y ago
huh? Nearly every southern Mexican is Mayan.
- 29athrowaway 6y ago
  Guatemala has ~40% of the total Maya population so that makes sense. Are the Maya communities in Mexico still speaking Maya languages?
  - josephmosby 6y ago
    Yes! The biggest community is in Yucatan with over 800K speakers: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Mayan_languages#:~:text=Yucatec%20Maya%20(known%20simply%20as,of%20Quintana%20Roo%20and%20Campeche https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Mayan_languages#:~:text=Yucate....

baxtr 6y ago

I once visited a Maya site in the Jungle, off the beaten path, away from the usual tourist site. It was probably the most amazing experience I've ever had. It was almost magical.

gshdg 6y ago

The consistent underestimation of the capabilities and development of historic indigenous peoples outside Europe and the Middle East is both absurd and tragic. You’d think that by now archaeologists might have adjusted their assumptions.

stinos 6y ago

Again shows what you can do with lidar images. I'm not sure how widely they are publicly available but if you can get lidar footage of an area you (think) you know definitely check it out. There's a lot of man-made things to discover. E.g. here's a little story from my area: we were on a walk once and someone pointed to a certain plant which is known to only thrive on very limey soil. And acoording to her used in the past by people as indicator for figuring out where they could get lime for making mortar. Nothing special to see though. A couple of months later, unrelated, a geologist showed lidar images of that area and in a spot close to where said plant was found, there was obvisouly a quite huge round sink in the terrain. Turns out this was once, many centuries ago, essentially a lime mine (which the geologist knew because of history). Nice how history, biology, geology can all come together like that. Yet if you don't know it it's pretty much invisible. Sattelite also doesn't give even the slightest hint. But with a height model and applying some shade it suddenly becomes quite obvious.