6 ms·

If hard drugs were legalized, I doubt they'd stay less dangerous than alcohol.

Matticus_Rex 6y ago
Prohibition is actually THE biggest driving force behind making drugs more potent for various reasons (one being that potency reduces transport costs for the same effective dose), so it seems implausible that legalization would be worse on this count.
- np_tedious 6y ago
  Worse still, inconsistent potency. "I usually do 3 of these" might work OK until one day the stuff is 1.5x as strong and you've done nearly 5.
  - cptnapalm 6y ago
    Some people I knew died of overdoses. The drug using friends of the deceased would then immediately seek out the dead person's drug dealer because they sold the "good stuff."
NanoWar 6y ago
How would the drug become more dangerous?
- mark-r 6y ago
  The point wasn't made explicit enough - if the drugs became legal, usage would go up and so would overall harm. At least that's the theory.
Xylakant 6y ago
Why? Many illegal (hard) drugs, especially morphine derivatives have very few actual physical side effects - the most common side effect of morphine is constipation. Morphine is one of the choice painkillers in palliative care because of that Alcohol on the other hand is an actual toxin that kills cells.
- NanoWar 6y ago
  Except that you also become addicted, which does not matter in palliative care. In normal cases, you can't have that
  - dghf 6y ago
    But the medical use of morphine extends beyond palliative care.
  - Xylakant 6y ago
    Yes, you can become addicted. It’s a drug. You become addicted to alcohol just as well. Caffeine, too. It doesn’t mean you will in any case. I was given morphine as pain killer in hospital and didn’t become addicted. The difference is that individuals taking morphine or heroine can function well with little adverse side effect. You shouldn’t drive or operate heavy machinery, but the damaging effect that alcohol has on your body is substantially worse than any morphine derivative you could possibly take.
Kataphract 6y ago
I'm surprised how often I see this argument in a world where Portugal succeeded in doing exactly that.
- nix23 6y ago
  Oh thank you so much, i search's for the Portugal example through the comments and here it is :)
caymanjim 6y ago
I don't think there are many people out there who are itching to doing heroin and crack but don't because of legality. On the other hand, there are a whole lot of people out there who already do heroin but are dying because they're getting fentanyl instead, due to a lack of quality control and unscrupulous vendors who care more about a quick buck than the long-term survival of their customers. Not to mention all the violence, which comes from criminals vying for territorial control, rather than users.
- robbrown451 6y ago
  You think if heroin and other opioids could be bought in any store as easily as alcohol, there wouldn't be a lot more use than there is today?
  - c22 6y ago
    I agree with the grandparent that there wouldn't be more informed use. However if the legal purveyors are allowed to market these substances in the same profit-motivated manner in which they currently move products (including dangerous and addictive existing legal products) then I agree we likely would see more use. Since basic common sense policy that should lead to a safer and freer world is being pragmatically limited by this profit-driven system perhaps it would pay to examine that other problem as well.
  - Xylakant 6y ago
    Maybe. But if people switched from alcohol as a drug to heroine or morphine, that’d be a net win. They’re substantially less damaging to your body than alcohol.
- alexilliamson 6y ago
  I agree with your first sentence, but without data, it's a super hard sell to the folks who think that the laws are the only thing keeping people from descending into hedonism. I wonder there is way to put some numbers behind it. Typically, this is where natural experiments are valuable, where somewhere legalizes something and another places don't. Then you compare. But it's hard enough to imagine any jurisdiction legalizing crack or heroin, let alone doing so AND systematically capture data to answer these questions.
saaaaaam 6y ago
Limited evidence suggests that might not be the case. Portugal decriminalised personal use of all drugs some time ago and it’s generally been regarded as pretty successful. [1] The mortality rate from drugs in Portugal is 3 people per million. [2] In the US this same measure is 217 per million. [3] In two US states it is in excess of 400 deaths per million. [4] [1] https://www.theguardian.com/news/2017/dec/05/portugals-radical-drugs-policy-is-working-why-hasnt-the-world-copied-it https://www.theguardian.com/news/2017/dec/05/portugals-radic... [2] https://www.independent.co.uk/news/world/europe/portugal-decriminalised-drugs-14-years-ago-and-now-hardly-anyone-dies-from-overdosing-10301780.html https://www.independent.co.uk/news/world/europe/portugal-dec... [3] https://www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-scotland-48938509 https://www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-scotland-48938509 [4] https://www.cdc.gov/nchs/pressroom/sosmap/drug_poisoning_mortality/drug_poisoning.htm https://www.cdc.gov/nchs/pressroom/sosmap/drug_poisoning_mor...
- saiya-jin 6y ago
  Decriminalization is a far cry from legalization. First is still very much illegal, hard to get, very questionable content, albeit less punishable (what if you have 1kg of material with you?) vs access to clean stuff, dosed in exact amount you want to take, in safest way you prefer.

Prohibition is actually THE biggest driving force behind making drugs more potent for various reasons (one being that potency reduces transport costs for the same effective dose), so it seems implausible that legalization would be worse on this count.

np_tedious 6y ago
Worse still, inconsistent potency. "I usually do 3 of these" might work OK until one day the stuff is 1.5x as strong and you've done nearly 5.
- cptnapalm 6y ago
  Some people I knew died of overdoses. The drug using friends of the deceased would then immediately seek out the dead person's drug dealer because they sold the "good stuff."

NanoWar 6y ago

How would the drug become more dangerous?

mark-r 6y ago
The point wasn't made explicit enough - if the drugs became legal, usage would go up and so would overall harm. At least that's the theory.

Xylakant 6y ago

Why? Many illegal (hard) drugs, especially morphine derivatives have very few actual physical side effects - the most common side effect of morphine is constipation. Morphine is one of the choice painkillers in palliative care because of that Alcohol on the other hand is an actual toxin that kills cells.

NanoWar 6y ago
Except that you also become addicted, which does not matter in palliative care. In normal cases, you can't have that
- dghf 6y ago
  But the medical use of morphine extends beyond palliative care.
- Xylakant 6y ago
  Yes, you can become addicted. It’s a drug. You become addicted to alcohol just as well. Caffeine, too. It doesn’t mean you will in any case. I was given morphine as pain killer in hospital and didn’t become addicted. The difference is that individuals taking morphine or heroine can function well with little adverse side effect. You shouldn’t drive or operate heavy machinery, but the damaging effect that alcohol has on your body is substantially worse than any morphine derivative you could possibly take.

Kataphract 6y ago

I'm surprised how often I see this argument in a world where Portugal succeeded in doing exactly that.

nix23 6y ago
Oh thank you so much, i search's for the Portugal example through the comments and here it is :)

caymanjim 6y ago

I don't think there are many people out there who are itching to doing heroin and crack but don't because of legality. On the other hand, there are a whole lot of people out there who already do heroin but are dying because they're getting fentanyl instead, due to a lack of quality control and unscrupulous vendors who care more about a quick buck than the long-term survival of their customers. Not to mention all the violence, which comes from criminals vying for territorial control, rather than users.

robbrown451 6y ago
You think if heroin and other opioids could be bought in any store as easily as alcohol, there wouldn't be a lot more use than there is today?
- c22 6y ago
  I agree with the grandparent that there wouldn't be more informed use. However if the legal purveyors are allowed to market these substances in the same profit-motivated manner in which they currently move products (including dangerous and addictive existing legal products) then I agree we likely would see more use. Since basic common sense policy that should lead to a safer and freer world is being pragmatically limited by this profit-driven system perhaps it would pay to examine that other problem as well.
- Xylakant 6y ago
  Maybe. But if people switched from alcohol as a drug to heroine or morphine, that’d be a net win. They’re substantially less damaging to your body than alcohol.
alexilliamson 6y ago
I agree with your first sentence, but without data, it's a super hard sell to the folks who think that the laws are the only thing keeping people from descending into hedonism. I wonder there is way to put some numbers behind it. Typically, this is where natural experiments are valuable, where somewhere legalizes something and another places don't. Then you compare. But it's hard enough to imagine any jurisdiction legalizing crack or heroin, let alone doing so AND systematically capture data to answer these questions.

saaaaaam 6y ago

Limited evidence suggests that might not be the case. Portugal decriminalised personal use of all drugs some time ago and it’s generally been regarded as pretty successful. [1] The mortality rate from drugs in Portugal is 3 people per million. [2] In the US this same measure is 217 per million. [3] In two US states it is in excess of 400 deaths per million. [4] [1] https://www.theguardian.com/news/2017/dec/05/portugals-radical-drugs-policy-is-working-why-hasnt-the-world-copied-it https://www.theguardian.com/news/2017/dec/05/portugals-radic... [2] https://www.independent.co.uk/news/world/europe/portugal-decriminalised-drugs-14-years-ago-and-now-hardly-anyone-dies-from-overdosing-10301780.html https://www.independent.co.uk/news/world/europe/portugal-dec... [3] https://www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-scotland-48938509 https://www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-scotland-48938509 [4] https://www.cdc.gov/nchs/pressroom/sosmap/drug_poisoning_mortality/drug_poisoning.htm https://www.cdc.gov/nchs/pressroom/sosmap/drug_poisoning_mor...

saiya-jin 6y ago
Decriminalization is a far cry from legalization. First is still very much illegal, hard to get, very questionable content, albeit less punishable (what if you have 1kg of material with you?) vs access to clean stuff, dosed in exact amount you want to take, in safest way you prefer.