12 ms·

I’ve said this for a long time: The people actually doing the work don’t have time to talk about it and the people spending all their time talking about it are

I’ve said this for a long time: The people actually doing the work don’t have time to talk about it and the people spending all their time talking about it aren’t doing the work. Of course there are exceptions but I’m extremely skeptical of a lot of stuff I read. Also that the HN bubble will always make readers feel behind when in reality 90% of the industry hasn’t even begun to catch-up. I felt behind with K8S in 2016, for example, not realizing we were just seeing the wave form when I felt like it was cresting.

aledalgrande 6y ago
Thumbs up for this. It is just a physical limitation of time, if you're writing you're not coding. I love when Aaron Patterson writes a post once in a blue moon, because they are so interesting.
- jedberg 6y ago
  > if you're writing you're not coding Do you code 16 hours every day? Or do you do other things with your time in addition to coding? It's possible to spend your "free time" writing about coding instead of writing code. Humans can do both well if they choose to.
  - aledalgrande 6y ago
    I don't work 16 hours a day. Writing good content is a lot of effort, especially after 8 hours of coding. If you're churning out a post a week I would say that is already a lot.
    - jedberg 6y ago
      > I don't work 16 hours a day. Exactly. You probably spend at least some time on a hobby. For some people their hobby is technical writing.
      - aledalgrande 6y ago
        Yes, sure there are good devs who write good content. But what I'm saying is that if you spend most of your time writing, you definitely don't have the same experience as someone who's mostly doing work with code.
PragmaticPulp 6y ago
> The people actually doing the work don’t have time to talk about it and the people spending all their time talking about it aren’t doing the work. Not only this, but the most accurate business advice tends to be too boring to attract views and clicks anyway. Link-sharing sites favor controversial opinions and stances that make the reader feel superior to their peers, so that's what the content producers deliver.
enraged_camel 6y ago
>> The people actually doing the work don’t have time to talk about it and the people spending all their time talking about it aren’t doing the work. I can't really agree with this. I think it's worth noting that writing about something you have just learned is a really good way to solidify that knowledge, especially if you are able to get feedback from others. So a lot of people deliberately set aside the time to do it, even if it comes at the expense of greater levels of productivity.
- fxtentacle 6y ago
  I wouldn't want to read a tutorial by someone who has just learned it. I want a tutorial by someone who has ample experience. How would you feel if I write a cookbook the first time my bread rolls didn't catch fire? ... to solicit feedback?
  - enraged_camel 6y ago
    It totally depends on the tutorial and the way it is written. I have personally learned a lot from "hey everyone, I just learned this neat thing and wanted to share!" type articles on the Internet, where the author discloses their level of experience upfront so you can have the appropriate expectations.
    - fxtentacle 6y ago
      Sure, I also like those inspirational hints. But the category of articles that I was criticizing here is when unemployed students pretend to be the authority on topic X to improve their chances of getting hired. Those articles typically do not disclose the lack of experience of the other. Quite the contrary, some of them even make up achievements and/or credentials.
  - blueridge 6y ago
    Somewhat related: I think this depends on what you're learning and how you've learned how to learn. As a beginner, I don't have any business going right to the master to ask about how I can improve my skills, so that I can "level up" and get the best results right away. Then again, we Western folk like pills and magic solutions for everything. We want results now, now, now. If you're a white belt, go chat with a yellow or orange belt. If you're a blue belt, go chat with the purple belt. You don't walk up to a black belt and ask about the best way to tie your belt. No, you go ask the other white belts who have been at it for a little longer than you have, the people who have a couple of stripes on their belt. These people are closer to where you are in the given moment. They were in your shoes not too long ago, so they can help translate your mistakes, and help make sense of what you're thinking, asking, or learning. When you see a really great photograph that touches you in ways you cannot describe, you're not seeing the product of an expensive camera, or a filter, you're seeing the result of someone who has taken hundreds of thousands of really shitty photographs over the course of their lifetime. You're seeing the results of maybe decades of practice. If this person writes a tutorial about taking photographs, can you learn from it? Sure. But they're not going to make you a better photographer by osmosis, you've got to go take a lot of pictures and read the beginners tutorials along the way. So yeah, if I've been burning my bread rolls for months, I'd love to know that one thing you did to not set the house on fire every time you put rolls in the oven.
dgb23 6y ago
This might be true for some, but certainly not all. There are plenty talented, productive people also writing articles and giving talks. Hell, most of what I watch/read (not just skim) is content either from the main drivers of a given tech or people who are experts. It isn’t that hard to differentiate.
- blub 6y ago
  I suspect those on the other hand might not have much of a life outside tech.
softwaredoug 6y ago
Disagree. When I do work, I’m super excited and can’t help but want to share. I know lots of people that have a similar outlook to work that brings them joy. It lights you up and you want others to share in that light. Paradoxically when NOT doing work I share less
mberning 6y ago
In the last couple years I worked on migrating some teams from CVS to Git. That is the reality of a lot of projects in the industry.
thosewhoteach 6y ago
>>The people actually doing the work don’t have time to talk about it and the people spending all their time talking about it aren’t doing the work. This is one of the most poisonous attitudes I have ever seen when it comes to tech content, and unfortunately it is really prevalent in the largest tech companies. No wonder nearly all the documentation created by the tech giants is complete garbage and often out of date, with almost zero regard for people who actually read the documentation.
- MattGaiser 6y ago
  > No wonder nearly all the documentation created by the tech giants is complete garbage and often out of date, with almost zero regard for people who actually read the documentation. A natural consequence of documentation being a "good beginner task" in open source or being assigned to whoever cannot get out of it on the project team.
Bahamut 6y ago
This is definitely true - I have been told by many respected people over the years that I should start a blog since I have a lot of interesting thoughts on subjects, but a lot of the issue to me is that I have a tendency to want to shape the tech the way I want for a blog, which leads to endless bikeshedding, and it's not as rewarding for me for the effort compared to doing more higher value things for work such as creating unplanned projects to solve work pains, planning other projects, figuring out new solutions to problems encountered at work, or mentoring other developers. I have a tendency to drop my nuggets of wisdom/analysis in chatrooms in Discord and Slack (and IRC prior) and let others adopt/evangelize them on their own if it makes sense for them to. I'm ok being in the background while my true value is appreciated by those who matter for my own career.
jedberg 6y ago
> The people actually doing the work don’t have time to talk about it and the people spending all their time talking about it aren’t doing the work. I think that's a really sad and cynical view. I assume you don't spend 16 hours a day writing code. I assume you have hobbies and other interests. For some people, educating others about their favorite topics is their hobby. Writing about their projects is their hobby. Here are entire blogs by people who are "doing": http://www.brendangregg.com http://www.brendangregg.com https://perspectives.mvdirona.com https://perspectives.mvdirona.com https://netflixtechblog.com https://netflixtechblog.com https://www.allthingsdistributed.com https://www.allthingsdistributed.com https://airbnb.io https://airbnb.io https://engineering.fb.com https://engineering.fb.com Those are just a few I can think of in one minute. If I went through my RSS feeds and bookmarks I could find more.
- twic 6y ago
  > I think that's a really sad and cynical view. It doesn't matter if it's sad and cynical, it matters if it's true.
  - jedberg 6y ago
    I believe the rest of my statement made it clear that I believe it is very untrue.
- azeirah 6y ago
  I would actually really like it if you would share some more high quality tech blogs!
  - jedberg 6y ago
    https://www.infoq.com https://www.infoq.com https://www.heavybit.com/library/ https://www.heavybit.com/library/ https://alestic.com https://alestic.com https://blog.deepracing.io https://blog.deepracing.io https://www.haproxy.com/blog/ https://www.haproxy.com/blog/ Podcasts: https://www.stitcher.com/podcast/offerzen-podcast https://www.stitcher.com/podcast/offerzen-podcast https://www.youtube.com/channel/UCzo_FqWUbEH0AYs0NilUWpA https://www.youtube.com/channel/UCzo_FqWUbEH0AYs0NilUWpA https://podbay.fm/podcast/996111298 https://podbay.fm/podcast/996111298
twic 6y ago
This is absolutely true, and it's fascinating to see the strength of visceral reaction against it.
habosa 6y ago
I know many people who do great work and talk about it. The work is hard and getting to speak about it at a conference or write a well-received blog post is their preferred kind of reward.

aledalgrande 6y ago

Thumbs up for this. It is just a physical limitation of time, if you're writing you're not coding. I love when Aaron Patterson writes a post once in a blue moon, because they are so interesting.

jedberg 6y ago
> if you're writing you're not coding Do you code 16 hours every day? Or do you do other things with your time in addition to coding? It's possible to spend your "free time" writing about coding instead of writing code. Humans can do both well if they choose to.
- aledalgrande 6y ago
  I don't work 16 hours a day. Writing good content is a lot of effort, especially after 8 hours of coding. If you're churning out a post a week I would say that is already a lot.
  - jedberg 6y ago
    > I don't work 16 hours a day. Exactly. You probably spend at least some time on a hobby. For some people their hobby is technical writing.
    - aledalgrande 6y ago
      Yes, sure there are good devs who write good content. But what I'm saying is that if you spend most of your time writing, you definitely don't have the same experience as someone who's mostly doing work with code.

PragmaticPulp 6y ago

> The people actually doing the work don’t have time to talk about it and the people spending all their time talking about it aren’t doing the work. Not only this, but the most accurate business advice tends to be too boring to attract views and clicks anyway. Link-sharing sites favor controversial opinions and stances that make the reader feel superior to their peers, so that's what the content producers deliver.

enraged_camel 6y ago

>> The people actually doing the work don’t have time to talk about it and the people spending all their time talking about it aren’t doing the work. I can't really agree with this. I think it's worth noting that writing about something you have just learned is a really good way to solidify that knowledge, especially if you are able to get feedback from others. So a lot of people deliberately set aside the time to do it, even if it comes at the expense of greater levels of productivity.

fxtentacle 6y ago
I wouldn't want to read a tutorial by someone who has just learned it. I want a tutorial by someone who has ample experience. How would you feel if I write a cookbook the first time my bread rolls didn't catch fire? ... to solicit feedback?
- enraged_camel 6y ago
  It totally depends on the tutorial and the way it is written. I have personally learned a lot from "hey everyone, I just learned this neat thing and wanted to share!" type articles on the Internet, where the author discloses their level of experience upfront so you can have the appropriate expectations.
  - fxtentacle 6y ago
    Sure, I also like those inspirational hints. But the category of articles that I was criticizing here is when unemployed students pretend to be the authority on topic X to improve their chances of getting hired. Those articles typically do not disclose the lack of experience of the other. Quite the contrary, some of them even make up achievements and/or credentials.
- blueridge 6y ago
  Somewhat related: I think this depends on what you're learning and how you've learned how to learn. As a beginner, I don't have any business going right to the master to ask about how I can improve my skills, so that I can "level up" and get the best results right away. Then again, we Western folk like pills and magic solutions for everything. We want results now, now, now. If you're a white belt, go chat with a yellow or orange belt. If you're a blue belt, go chat with the purple belt. You don't walk up to a black belt and ask about the best way to tie your belt. No, you go ask the other white belts who have been at it for a little longer than you have, the people who have a couple of stripes on their belt. These people are closer to where you are in the given moment. They were in your shoes not too long ago, so they can help translate your mistakes, and help make sense of what you're thinking, asking, or learning. When you see a really great photograph that touches you in ways you cannot describe, you're not seeing the product of an expensive camera, or a filter, you're seeing the result of someone who has taken hundreds of thousands of really shitty photographs over the course of their lifetime. You're seeing the results of maybe decades of practice. If this person writes a tutorial about taking photographs, can you learn from it? Sure. But they're not going to make you a better photographer by osmosis, you've got to go take a lot of pictures and read the beginners tutorials along the way. So yeah, if I've been burning my bread rolls for months, I'd love to know that one thing you did to not set the house on fire every time you put rolls in the oven.

dgb23 6y ago

This might be true for some, but certainly not all. There are plenty talented, productive people also writing articles and giving talks. Hell, most of what I watch/read (not just skim) is content either from the main drivers of a given tech or people who are experts. It isn’t that hard to differentiate.

blub 6y ago
I suspect those on the other hand might not have much of a life outside tech.

softwaredoug 6y ago

Disagree. When I do work, I’m super excited and can’t help but want to share. I know lots of people that have a similar outlook to work that brings them joy. It lights you up and you want others to share in that light. Paradoxically when NOT doing work I share less

mberning 6y ago

In the last couple years I worked on migrating some teams from CVS to Git. That is the reality of a lot of projects in the industry.

thosewhoteach 6y ago

>>The people actually doing the work don’t have time to talk about it and the people spending all their time talking about it aren’t doing the work. This is one of the most poisonous attitudes I have ever seen when it comes to tech content, and unfortunately it is really prevalent in the largest tech companies. No wonder nearly all the documentation created by the tech giants is complete garbage and often out of date, with almost zero regard for people who actually read the documentation.

MattGaiser 6y ago
> No wonder nearly all the documentation created by the tech giants is complete garbage and often out of date, with almost zero regard for people who actually read the documentation. A natural consequence of documentation being a "good beginner task" in open source or being assigned to whoever cannot get out of it on the project team.

Bahamut 6y ago

This is definitely true - I have been told by many respected people over the years that I should start a blog since I have a lot of interesting thoughts on subjects, but a lot of the issue to me is that I have a tendency to want to shape the tech the way I want for a blog, which leads to endless bikeshedding, and it's not as rewarding for me for the effort compared to doing more higher value things for work such as creating unplanned projects to solve work pains, planning other projects, figuring out new solutions to problems encountered at work, or mentoring other developers. I have a tendency to drop my nuggets of wisdom/analysis in chatrooms in Discord and Slack (and IRC prior) and let others adopt/evangelize them on their own if it makes sense for them to. I'm ok being in the background while my true value is appreciated by those who matter for my own career.

jedberg 6y ago

> The people actually doing the work don’t have time to talk about it and the people spending all their time talking about it aren’t doing the work. I think that's a really sad and cynical view. I assume you don't spend 16 hours a day writing code. I assume you have hobbies and other interests. For some people, educating others about their favorite topics is their hobby. Writing about their projects is their hobby. Here are entire blogs by people who are "doing": http://www.brendangregg.com http://www.brendangregg.com https://perspectives.mvdirona.com https://perspectives.mvdirona.com https://netflixtechblog.com https://netflixtechblog.com https://www.allthingsdistributed.com https://www.allthingsdistributed.com https://airbnb.io https://airbnb.io https://engineering.fb.com https://engineering.fb.com Those are just a few I can think of in one minute. If I went through my RSS feeds and bookmarks I could find more.

twic 6y ago
> I think that's a really sad and cynical view. It doesn't matter if it's sad and cynical, it matters if it's true.
- jedberg 6y ago
  I believe the rest of my statement made it clear that I believe it is very untrue.
azeirah 6y ago
I would actually really like it if you would share some more high quality tech blogs!
- jedberg 6y ago
  https://www.infoq.com https://www.infoq.com https://www.heavybit.com/library/ https://www.heavybit.com/library/ https://alestic.com https://alestic.com https://blog.deepracing.io https://blog.deepracing.io https://www.haproxy.com/blog/ https://www.haproxy.com/blog/ Podcasts: https://www.stitcher.com/podcast/offerzen-podcast https://www.stitcher.com/podcast/offerzen-podcast https://www.youtube.com/channel/UCzo_FqWUbEH0AYs0NilUWpA https://www.youtube.com/channel/UCzo_FqWUbEH0AYs0NilUWpA https://podbay.fm/podcast/996111298 https://podbay.fm/podcast/996111298

twic 6y ago

This is absolutely true, and it's fascinating to see the strength of visceral reaction against it.

habosa 6y ago

I know many people who do great work and talk about it. The work is hard and getting to speak about it at a conference or write a well-received blog post is their preferred kind of reward.