3 ms·

> Exposure to ~600 THz EM radiation disrupting the circadian rhythm [2] You see, if you hadn't switched the units around, this would have been a good example.

by namibj 6y ago

> Exposure to ~600 THz EM radiation disrupting the circadian rhythm [2] You see, if you hadn't switched the units around, this would have been a good example. But I'm failing at searching a way for how this could have been deliberate, yet non-malicious. Also, 10kHz is something you get with modern power electronics, not RF. Take a look at the way they couple that energy into the subject, and what the power levels are. Can you please give a concrete citation for the power being "significantly higher than before"?

jrockway 6y ago
There are some interesting radio transmissions in the ~10kHz region: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Very_low_frequency https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Very_low_frequency I am not sure how these signals come from power lines, which is what the study looks at. I would assume those are in the 50-60Hz range. (But we can use that band for communication too! https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Extremely_low_frequency https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Extremely_low_frequency)
- namibj 6y ago
  Well, keep in mind that the Swiss 50Hz do fall into the <100kHz designation. I'm aware of it's usage for pinging currently-diving submarines, and in the slightly higher region, providing wireless bidirectional low-bandwidth comms into deep mines. The power lines do have quite some magnetic stray fields, though. Not that it's too massive; it's not more than a few (3~4) kA at most.
owenversteeg 6y ago
Wow, you are really struggling with the whole "Assume good faith" thing. https://news.ycombinator.com/newsguidelines.html https://news.ycombinator.com/newsguidelines.html Here's a helpful link. HN can be a great place full of interesting people, but you really do have to assume good faith. Look, I came into this discussion trying to have an intelligent discussion about the possibile risks of 5G. When I opened the article I was somewhat positive about 5G, now I am somewhat negative. I am not some crackpot saying it will damn us to Hell eternally, I'm saying hey, we've messed around with novel parts of the EM spectrum before, why not at least evaluate the risks first? Never before in human history has anyone lived with a mmwave source, and now we are planning to roll them out at unprecedented speed to all the world's cities without a single longitudinal study on the risks. I've been playing with different ways to represent things partly for fun, and partly as a filter for this discussion. Anyone who can't trivially figure out that 1 Hz ~= a wavelength of 299792 km does not have the knowledge necessary for this discussion. Tens and hundreds of kHz RF has been created by humans. The first of studies have been coming out in the last decade about its effects. So far, it looks like living within 50m more than doubles your risk of Alzheimer's. >> Can you please give a concrete citation for the power being "significantly higher than before"? Sure. Both MTN and Huawei say that just with current systems we're looking at 200-300% of existing levels. And it's their job to make it sound -good-. https://www.fiercewireless.com/tech/5g-base-stations-use-a-lot-more-energy-than-4g-base-stations-says-mtn https://www.fiercewireless.com/tech/5g-base-stations-use-a-l...
- ac29 6y ago
  That link is talking about total power used by the entire site, not RF power emitted. A lot of that is going into things like additional switching capacity, advanced FPGA and DSP hardware, etc. Also, it is additive on top of older cell technology (look at the graph) - it makes sense that power consumption will go up at a site supporting 2G/3G/4G and 5G, instead of just 2/3G or 2/3/4G.
- namibj 6y ago
  I'm sorry for not seeing > and partly as a filter for this discussion coming. As I said earlier, I am not assuming bad faith from you in this discussion, but didn't see a good reason for mixing these up. It made me consider whether you might have soaked those numbers from popular media or (worse) echo chambers. I guess it's just another example for sarcasm/humor causing problems on the internet, but this time making me worry whether you got captured by some echo chamber, instead of making the sarcastic author look like a troll. And, just to note, I personally try hard to not behave badly on HN, so feel free to assume a misunderstanding instead of me assuming/exhibiting bad faith.

by namibj 6y ago

jrockway 6y ago

There are some interesting radio transmissions in the ~10kHz region: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Very_low_frequency https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Very_low_frequency I am not sure how these signals come from power lines, which is what the study looks at. I would assume those are in the 50-60Hz range. (But we can use that band for communication too! https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Extremely_low_frequency https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Extremely_low_frequency)

namibj 6y ago
Well, keep in mind that the Swiss 50Hz do fall into the <100kHz designation. I'm aware of it's usage for pinging currently-diving submarines, and in the slightly higher region, providing wireless bidirectional low-bandwidth comms into deep mines. The power lines do have quite some magnetic stray fields, though. Not that it's too massive; it's not more than a few (3~4) kA at most.

owenversteeg 6y ago

Wow, you are really struggling with the whole "Assume good faith" thing. https://news.ycombinator.com/newsguidelines.html https://news.ycombinator.com/newsguidelines.html Here's a helpful link. HN can be a great place full of interesting people, but you really do have to assume good faith. Look, I came into this discussion trying to have an intelligent discussion about the possibile risks of 5G. When I opened the article I was somewhat positive about 5G, now I am somewhat negative. I am not some crackpot saying it will damn us to Hell eternally, I'm saying hey, we've messed around with novel parts of the EM spectrum before, why not at least evaluate the risks first? Never before in human history has anyone lived with a mmwave source, and now we are planning to roll them out at unprecedented speed to all the world's cities without a single longitudinal study on the risks. I've been playing with different ways to represent things partly for fun, and partly as a filter for this discussion. Anyone who can't trivially figure out that 1 Hz ~= a wavelength of 299792 km does not have the knowledge necessary for this discussion. Tens and hundreds of kHz RF has been created by humans. The first of studies have been coming out in the last decade about its effects. So far, it looks like living within 50m more than doubles your risk of Alzheimer's. >> Can you please give a concrete citation for the power being "significantly higher than before"? Sure. Both MTN and Huawei say that just with current systems we're looking at 200-300% of existing levels. And it's their job to make it sound -good-. https://www.fiercewireless.com/tech/5g-base-stations-use-a-lot-more-energy-than-4g-base-stations-says-mtn https://www.fiercewireless.com/tech/5g-base-stations-use-a-l...

ac29 6y ago
That link is talking about total power used by the entire site, not RF power emitted. A lot of that is going into things like additional switching capacity, advanced FPGA and DSP hardware, etc. Also, it is additive on top of older cell technology (look at the graph) - it makes sense that power consumption will go up at a site supporting 2G/3G/4G and 5G, instead of just 2/3G or 2/3/4G.
namibj 6y ago
I'm sorry for not seeing > and partly as a filter for this discussion coming. As I said earlier, I am not assuming bad faith from you in this discussion, but didn't see a good reason for mixing these up. It made me consider whether you might have soaked those numbers from popular media or (worse) echo chambers. I guess it's just another example for sarcasm/humor causing problems on the internet, but this time making me worry whether you got captured by some echo chamber, instead of making the sarcastic author look like a troll. And, just to note, I personally try hard to not behave badly on HN, so feel free to assume a misunderstanding instead of me assuming/exhibiting bad faith.