8 ms·

The Dactyl-ManuForm Keyboard

98 points by autocorr 6y ago

ketzo 6y ago
This is pretty awesome. For those who haven't explored ergonomic keyboards, 1) you should! take care of your hands! and 2) shit gets preeeeetty wild out there. For further reading, check out ortholinear keyboards like the Planck [1], or crazier split designs like the ErgoDox EZ [2], or even "keywell" (or just "pit") designs like the Kinesis Advantage2 [3]. All require a learning curve (obviously!), but they offer some pretty immediately noticeable (in my experience) advantages for your hand health. One of my favorite design items are thumb clusters like you see on the last two links here: why should your thumb be limited to just spacebar, and why should both of your thumbs do the same thing? [1] https://ergodox-ez.com/pages/planck https://ergodox-ez.com/pages/planck [2] https://ergodox-ez.com/ https://ergodox-ez.com/ [3] https://kinesis-ergo.com/shop/advantage2/ https://kinesis-ergo.com/shop/advantage2/
- deleted 6y ago
  [deleted]
- marinhero 6y ago
  How’s the Planck keyboard ergonomic? Wouldn’t it make me wrist twist too?
  - Palomides 6y ago
    it isn't, though proponents will argue that the small size means you move your hands/fingers less
  - strombofulous 6y ago
    60% ortho boards reduce finger travel and reduce the horizontal travel, which is good (try moving your fingers up and down, then moving them left and right - it takes a lot more effort to move them left and right), but if you're going to invest in learning a new keyboard layout you should at least make sure it splits as well so that you don't need to bend your elbows and wrists. I would not recommend just getting an ortholinear board for ergonomics. They definitely look cool though.
    - garren 6y ago
      Amen. Also consider angling it as appropriate. In my experience the difference is pretty noticeable. Ergogox-ez has tent kits which are great. I picked up a couple of 3D printer angled risers that I use with my classic ergodox.
    - lawn 6y ago
      A non-split ortholinear board might even be worse as it causes you to bend your wrists even more than standard keyboards.
  - garren 6y ago
    I picked up a Planck kit out of curiosity. I’ve always liked small keyboards. However, I have a hard time understanding how it could be considered ergonomically friendly compared to something like the ergodox. The board is so small that it keeps my wrists at at odd angle when typing. It’s small and convenient when I need a quick spare but I can’t type on it for long.
  - Fwirt 6y ago
    A lot of people criticize the Planck for this, but I think the right way to type on a Planck is to treat it like its own beast. Rather than twisting your wrists to face the keyboard straight on, let them angle inward naturally. The grid layout means you don't have to contort your hands to reach the different rows, and if you let your hands "float" above the keyboard rather than putting pressure on your wrists it feels great. Another big mistake is using the default layout, part of the draw of a small layout is that you can customize the layers to your needs. It takes a couple weeks of getting used to but I loved mine so much I built a second one. I hate typing on a staggered layout now, it feels bizarre. That being said, I have no doubt a split layout is superior ergonomically, but it takes up way more space and is more complicated. I would love to try out a Dactyl-Manuform though.
- strombofulous 6y ago
  I have not heard good things about the ergodox's thumb keys. A lot of people say you need to stretch your thumbs pretty far to use them (even if you have big hands), which kind of works against the goal of not putting stress on your hands.
  - garren 6y ago
    I’ve got the classic ergodox (a couple) as well as the ergodox-ez. I’ve been using ergodox for 5-6 years now and have never had an issue with the thumb cluster, but it takes some getting used to, and there is certainly room for improvement. I’m a huge fan of the split layout, and I feel that split layouts are probably a much more significant factor when it comes to reduction of hand stress.
  - phaus 6y ago
    I have an Ergodox-EZ. The issue with the thumb keys is that its only natural or easy to hit the bottom 3 for most people. Some people can only hit the bottom 2. That being said, having 3 usable keys per thumb is a game changer IMO and its the best keyboard I've ever used by far. For the ones that are harder to hit I map stuff that I don't usually use often while typing like the escape key. I'm working building a Dactyl manuform. After I printed the case I put the keys in the thumb cluster and threw some keycaps on it to see how it works. IMO its far easier to use all 6 of the keys on the Dactyl's thumb cluster. Also, the dactyl is intended to be further customized per user, so you can actually find variants with less thumb cluster keys if for some reason you don't want them. Some people have even customized them to have trackball replace one of the thumb clusters. It took me about 3 weeks to get reasonably fast and confident typing on my Ergodox, after about 6 weeks I was pretty close to my original speed (approximately 120 WPM). IMO its worth the effort to learn and I will never go back to a keyboard without at least 3 keys per thumb cluster. There might be a more efficient layout, but what I use my easily accessible thumb keys for is space, return, backspace, win key/mac command and other modifiers. For something pretty similar to the Ergodox but with a better thumb cluster, there's the Keyboardio. However, they sold out of the initial run and they are supposedly going to be releasing a new revision soon.
  - lawn 6y ago
- ken 6y ago
  I never understood why ortholinear keyboards aren't the standard. It's bizarre that the fingers on my left hand would move slightly to the left for the top row, but the fingers on my right hand would also move slightly to the left for the top row. And to the right, on both hands, for the bottom row. Fingers don't naturally move like that! My hands have mirror symmetry. Why doesn't my keyboard? The number 6 exemplifies the problem. Touch-typing classes teach that it's pressed by the right hand, but the number row has drifted so far left that it's actually closer to the left hand. Sure enough, (non-ortho) split keyboards can't agree which side of the split to put it on. Sometimes even different models from the same company disagree. Staggered keys is even crazier, to me, than QWERTY. There's no spending 2 weeks relearning where every letter is. There's no messing up spatial mnemonics like Z/X/C/V. It just instantly fixes your fingers from being slightly out of alignment. And the craziest is when touchscreens do it. Keys were only staggered in that funny way to make room for the keylevers. Computer keyboards never had keylevers, but touchscreens really never had keylevers!
  - jupp0r 6y ago
    > I never understood why ortholinear keyboards aren't the standard. Same as querty: it’s there so typewriter stamps don’t hit each other.
  - IronBacon 6y ago
    You aren't alone, the thing boggles my mind too. I like better staggered columns layout than ortholinear, but yeah staggered rows don't make any sense, I hate using the keyboard in my notebook. Joking, I would say only Apple could find the "courage" to introduce columns staggered/ortholinear keyboards... ^__~
    - ken 6y ago
      You joke, but I've wondered the same thing. Apple, of all companies, is happy to re-examine (or discard) the status quo. They dropped the headphone jack on many products -- as they said, it's "over 100 years old, used to help quickly exchange in switchboards". Yet their keyboards still look pretty much like a 19th-century Remington.
chipperyman573 6y ago
A while back I got diagnosed with carpal and cubital tunnel. After many, many hours of research, I eventually bought a Quefrency from Keebio (https://keeb.io/pages/assembly-service https://keeb.io/pages/assembly-service has the premade ones) to see if it would help. I can now confidently say, if you are worried about getting CT, or you have it and want something easier on your hands, you _need_ to check this out. Seriously, for most people on here an injury like CT can make you lose your job. The split form factor really helps alleviate the pain. Not bending your wrists or elbows helps way more than you can imagine. Even now my hands will still hurt if I use a regular keyboard but I can type on my split board all day long. The Quefrency also has the advantage of not being a different form factor (like the Dactyl), it's just a standard 60% split staggered layout (the smaller form factor helps reduce finger travel as well, but imo it's mostly the split). Plus, it just runs off a pro micro so you can flash your own firmware very easily (it runs on QMK which is open source) I've also heard good things about the levinson and nyquist but I haven't personally tested them. I have also used an Iris for a while and like it a lot, but it looks like they're backordered for now. The viterbi looks a little big imho, but if you want a big split board it would definitely be a good option. I actually am somewhat in the keyboard business right now (I got inspired by how well it worked, and it's really fun!), if anyone has any questions or needs some recommendations feel free to AMA. BTW, if you end up going with a different form factor, be ready to type at 10-20WPM for at least a week or two. When I got my first ortho board, I typed at 13WPM and gained back roughly 5-10WPM a week. You can't use a standard layout while you learn, either, or you lose a ton of the muscle memory.
- cerberusss 6y ago
  Seconding split keyboards. I'm in the process of building a Quefrency and it's fun. But to have something working right now, I bought the Kinesis Freestyle2, which is available for macOS and Windows, with a Bluetooth version to boot.e
- the_pwner224 6y ago
  About a year ago I bought half of a Nyquist (6x5 - 5 is standard height minus the F-row, which is not a big deal since you have a second layer) and a Vieterbi (7x5). That gives enough space to fit a full 60% keyboard layout, but unlike the Quefrency the keys are in a grid instead of staggered. Getting used to it didn't take long for me. I can use the computer faster and more efficiently than with a full-size keyboard, since you have a second layer to put buttons onto and so your fingers don't need to move (it's completely programmable; add 30 layers if you want). I had two buttons, one where the Fn key is on laptops (lower left), and one where the enter key normally is (mid right), to switch to the second layer, where I had WASD,QE,RF = arrow keys, home/end, pgup/dn, and hjkl = arrow keys. This is very useful. And stuff like printscreen, media controls, etc. no longer require stretching your fingers or moving your hands. I had space in the corners on both thumbs, and backspace/enter right next to those on the left/right hands. Also useful and saves your pinky from long stretches to backspace. Positioning it naturally aligned with your arms & wrists is also great. Overall, highly recommend the Viterbi - which would give you an extra column beyond what I had. But not sure how it would work in half paired with the new Nyquist revision; the Viterbi hasn't been updated yet iirc. I built that one with loud clicky Cherry Blue switches; recently I switched to the newer revision Nyquist with quiet Matias/Alps tactile switches. The switches are great but very few keycap options; the official ones make it not that quiet since they're not a perfect fit with the keys and thus rattle. The Blues were great but eventually the loudness starts to become just slightly painful; now I use the `bucklespring` program on my computer to simulate it. The new Nyquist has the microcontroller built into the PCB, which simplifies assembly, and adds support for key backlighting, which is useful in the dark. The lack of the 13th column really hurts; with the Nyquist+Viterbi you get a full keyboard with stuff like the F-keys and arrow keys on the second layer. With this I need to put things like +=-_\ and []{} on the second layer. This effectively makes it a triple-layer setup for typing, since you need to use both shift and Fn to write characters, whereas previously Fn was for moving around and doing actions. Even after a long while to get used to it my brain often gets confused and I have to pause for a few seconds to try to figure out how to insert the character. But at the same time lighting is essential (to me) for working at night, and even if that wasn't an issue I don't want to spend another $120 on making a new Viterbi or Nyquist/Viterbi hybrid with quieter keyswitches. So overall the Nyquist seems like the sort of thing hardcore keyboard enthusiasts would buy, and less suitable for programmers (maybe OK for other people). You can head over to /r/mechanicalkeyboards to find plenty of weirdos who would spend $50 on a single keycap and keep a collection of keyboards with 30 keys total. If you don't mind sharing, what do you do in the kb business?
zepto 6y ago
Does anyone have any recommendations for one handed keyboards that are practical?
- ves 6y ago
  The only one handed keyboard I know of is the one made by matias.
  - phaus 6y ago
    Some people have claimed its pretty good. The company claims you can learn to type 80 WPM with one hand. They are super expensive because they were designed specifically for people that have only 1 hand, but there are some people interested in just using a single hand to type so they can work more efficiently with a mouse. However, that might not be a great idea. Some two-handed keyboard reviewers have tried it out and at least one of them thinks its an absolutely horrifying device that he can't imagine anyone learning to type well on. He seemed to think it developed a reputation as being a good one handed computer simply because there aren't any other options.
  - fortran77 6y ago
    See this review by Chyrosan of the "Maltron" which was also made for one-handed people. https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=fkGpFeUQ49Y https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=fkGpFeUQ49Y
  - bjoli 6y ago
    Which imo currently makes the best tactile dampened mechanical switches as well. Their quiet click switch is silent and tactile, with actually solid tactility (as opposed to just about every other tactile switch out there). People have had some reliability issues though, so it's a mixed bag. They have recently gotten some new tooling, so hopefully they will start making keyboards that look somewhat not like a shit 90s keyboard.
    - ves 6y ago
      Yeah, I love their switches but blew three of them in two years which is pretty unacceptable. I’ve used cherries far longer and never had that problem.
dancek 6y ago
This is an amazing keyboard, and the best thing: it's really easy to modify to suit your needs. I got to try a friend's Dactyl so I had a general idea of what doesn't feel ergonomic to me about it. Then I took some measurements of my fingers, moved the columns around accordingly, somewhat flattened the whole structure and printed it. And got the most ergonomic keyboard I could imagine. (Gee, I really should solder the other side one so I could use it... :s) Of course this is a lot of work and not for most people. But the point is that 3D modeling anything from scratch is near impossible for a first timer, yet the dactyl family is easy to modify for anyone who can code.
bboygravity 6y ago
I'm currently in the process of building one of these Manuform keyboards. If anybody else wants to build one, here are a few helpful things that took me hours to find: 1. By far the most readable closure script. Has more features than any other script I found (killer feature for me: wide pinky buttons): https://github.com/ibnuda/dactyl-keyboard/tree/refaktor https://github.com/ibnuda/dactyl-keyboard/tree/refaktor 2. The same script as a web-form without exposing every parameter. Generates openSCAD 3D files: http://dactyl.siskam.link/manuform http://dactyl.siskam.link/manuform 3. Nice assembly guide 1: https://nickgreen.info/dactyl-manuform-build-log/ https://nickgreen.info/dactyl-manuform-build-log/ 4. Nice assembly guide 2: https://medium.com/swlh/complete-idiot-guide-for-building-a-dactyl-manuform-keyboard-53454845b065 https://medium.com/swlh/complete-idiot-guide-for-building-a-... The original Dactyl and Manuform scripts lack commenting, are hard to understand and lack some cool features.
lrpublic 6y ago
I’m sure I’m one of many people here searching for the ultimate keyboard. I missed the kick starter for the Keyboardio Atreus. I’m looking forward to the launch so I can order one retail. In short it’s a split layout ortholinear similar to the Planck. Two killer features for me are Bluetooth (and wired) and QMK firmware that allows layers. https://shop.keyboard.io/ https://shop.keyboard.io/
- emmanueloga_ 6y ago
  Atreus is a split kb but on a single piece, so... not quite? For me the nice thing of a split keyboard is to have each half line up with my shoulders, feels really comfy to type like this (this way my arms rest on my chair's armrests most of the time). I looked for a while for a nice split mechanical keyboard and I found all sort of crazy things, including the ones from [1]. In the end, I decided to try the kinesis gaming kb [2] and I really like it! (so much so I even got one for my brother :-) It has some cool macro recording keys and extra buttons to map and other features. Caveat: it is wired. 1: http://reddit.com/r/mechanicalkeyboards http://reddit.com/r/mechanicalkeyboards 2: https://gaming.kinesis-ergo.com/ https://gaming.kinesis-ergo.com/
  - enoch_r 6y ago
    The Atreus is by far my favorite keyboard, I have a Keyboardio that I never use because the Atreus is so great. The key is to pull it off your desk and put it in your lap. You end up typing with your hands on your thighs, which feels quite natural and relaxed.
devin 6y ago
I must take this moment to extol the virtues of vertical mice. I had severe pain in my forearm and wrist. I switched to a vertical mouse and that pain went away immediately. I personally use a now 8? year old Evoluent vertical mouse. Tell your friends and family. It's totally unnatural for you to twist your arm to hold a normal flat mouse. The vertical mouse is natural and like shaking someone's hand. Try it right now: Hold your hand out like you're going to shake someone's hand, and then slowly turn your hand to hold a flat mouse. Feel that tension? It's terrible for you.
- Symbiote 6y ago
  I recently bought an Evoluent vertical mouse. I'm not using it all the time, but one of the best features for a Linux user is the separate middle button. I find mouse-wheel buttons are often stiff, which is uncomfortable when copy-pasting a lot of text using the middle button. The Evoluent has a separate middle button, and a click on the wheel.
- bjoli 6y ago
  Why a mouse though? Mx ergo can be tilted to about 45 degrees and you don't even have to do a lot of weird arm movements.
fortran77 6y ago
NKRO?
leovander 6y ago
More split keyboards: - Corne: You usually have to solder it yourself, and source the switches/caps. A few sites will build it for you. [0][1[[2] - LilyPro: Same as above. [3][4] - Georgo/GeorgoPlex: [7] Trackball: Someone mentioned a vertical mouse, those are really great, but I have been pushing trackballs on a few colleagues. A good in between is the newer logitech, that has a tilt mechanism, but its a thumbball. [5] You can find more options in at r/trackballs [6]. I can recommend the "Kensington Expert Wireless Trackball Mouse" and "CST L-Trac Blue Trackball", although the latter, the original company shutdown and are being manufactured by xkeys. There's also an open source trackball, ploopy [8]. P.s. buying keyboards and soldering them are great for a quick fix, but this hobby gets expensive quick. I am waiting on a few group buys; another 65% keyboard, another split keyboard and a few more key cap sets. P.s.s. group buys can be a hit or miss (mostly hit), treat them like kickstarters, and maybe you'll get your parts in a year or so. At least in r/mechanicalkeyboards, a few users have recently been complaining a tad more about not seeing the final product v.s. renders. [0] https://github.com/foostan/crkbd https://github.com/foostan/crkbd [1] https://keyhive.xyz/shop/hotswap-corne-helidox https://keyhive.xyz/shop/hotswap-corne-helidox [2] https://www.littlekeyboards.com/products/corne-mx-hotswap-kit https://www.littlekeyboards.com/products/corne-mx-hotswap-ki... [3] https://keyhive.xyz/shop/lily58 https://keyhive.xyz/shop/lily58 [4] https://github.com/kata0510/Lily58 https://github.com/kata0510/Lily58 [6] https://www.reddit.com/r/Trackballs/ https://www.reddit.com/r/Trackballs/ [7] https://www.gboards.ca/ https://www.gboards.ca/ [8] https://www.ploopy.co/ https://www.ploopy.co/
- aeontech 6y ago
  Ok, gboards are something straight out of Snow Crash. I didn't know I needed this, thanks a lot :)
  - leovander 6y ago
    We've been joking around about getting long trrs cables, wrapping around the back side of our office chairs and attaching the keyboards to the arm rests, go all Picard. QMK supports mouse/trackball support, I think gboard and a few others support adding a blackberry track ball and we'd be aces.
1MachineElf 6y ago
I have 3 pairs of the "skeletons" 3D printed, but have never gotten around to the hand-wiring part... It's hassle and one mistake leading to a shorted microcontroller will mean A LOT of desoldering.
- jstanley 6y ago
  It's unlikely that you'd make a mistake that would damage the microcontroller. The most likely failure modes are a key that never activates, or a key that is stuck activated, or a row/column that never activates, or a row/column that is stuck activated. In the case of a broken row/column, if you can't find the problem visually, then you're stuck binary-searching your connections until you find where it is, but at least that's only O(log N) desoldering work.
joshspankit 6y ago
Here’s a question I’ve been pondering, and I’m curious about the community’s thoughts: To what extent should the distance between keys be customized to the length of the user’s fingers? For example, being 6’1”, I have larger than average hands, with wider than average distance between the tips of my fingers, and if I pay attention, I can feel how my fingers feel cramped on the standard 104-key layout I’ve been using my whole life. Similarly, I see comments here about the differences between people, and the sniff test makes me think it’s almost all about the different lengths of user’s fingers.
Syzygies 6y ago
The Dactyl/Manuform keyboard is a shining totem of one of the deeper rabbit holes out there. I know; I made it back out alive. My aspirational keyboard is a GergoPlex. I own other mechanical keyboards, such as a Planck EZ and an ErgoDox EZ. My actual daily driver is a Leopold FC660C with Topre Silent 45g rubber dome switches, modified with a Hasu FC660C Controller which can be programmed using QMK (or TMK) firmware. My layout is no longer taking most of my time. I use "one finger each hand" chording and "tap/hold" keys to access many custom layers for controlling my computer and editing in VSCode. My fingers rarely move more than one keycap off home row; my thumbs don't get much work. When I'm evaluating a new cookbook I compare recipes I know cold. For comparison, "old school" shaving is another rabbit hole that I survived. What habit stayed with me? A brush and Mitchell´s Wool Fat Shaving Soap. If this has the ring of truth for you, you might draw my same conclusions about mechanical keyboards. Years ago I owned three Kinesis Advantage keyboards. In a way, I loved them. I got rid of them because of too many systematic issues (stuck modifier keys, for example) one could trace to primitive USB hardware they could't afford to redesign. Their new internals might be better. Every so often I'd try a mechanical keyboard to see what I was missing. I wouldn't spend enough, or get wrist rests to adjust to the higher keycaps. Only the better keyboards and switches are worth the trouble; I got hooked once I finally spent enough. Our species wants to meld with machines. Many of us wish we could immerse our hands in nutrients and grow physical connections to our machines. I've met computer scientists working on brain implants; they talk about Alzheimer’s to get grants but their eyes are clearly on the horizon. The mind urge to do this instead in software and custom hardware is irrepressible. One needs to appreciate this to understand the levels of obsession in the keyboard rabbit hole. It's a realm where we all can be Thomas Edison. Your results may vary, but many people conclude that the feel of Topre rubber dome switches is vastly superior to any of the hundreds of mechanical switches now available. This is an obsession killer. Why? You can't buy Topre switches separately. No one makes replacement keycaps, and the adaptors for standard keycaps impair the keyboard feel. The stock keycaps are fine but dull-looking, but what touch typist ever looks at their keyboard? Still, the majority of keyboard forum posts proudly show off custom keycaps. If one were to cannabilize Topre keycaps from an existing keyboard, the printed circuit boards are much harder to design. So one can't experiment with novel designs, such as the Dactyl/Manuform. This leaves customizing the layout, which the Hasu FC660C Controller makes possible. Getting out of that rabbit is a separate problem, for which I don't have good advice. I had been fighting a basic urge to site my consciousness in my hands, a defining identity for our species. I wanted to be outside woodworking, rather than inside programming. Customizing my keyboard was a trick, to get my nose back in the kibble bowl. One day, I was satisfied with my layout, and I moved on. Now, I'm struggling with the urge to write a new programming language, rather than just coding the project I want to finish. I don't have hand issues requiring a more radical ergonomic design, but that may be partly that I don't move my fingers far off home row, even for modifier keys.

98 points by autocorr 6y ago

This is pretty awesome. For those who haven't explored ergonomic keyboards, 1) you should! take care of your hands! and 2) shit gets preeeeetty wild out there. For further reading, check out ortholinear keyboards like the Planck [1], or crazier split designs like the ErgoDox EZ [2], or even "keywell" (or just "pit") designs like the Kinesis Advantage2 [3]. All require a learning curve (obviously!), but they offer some pretty immediately noticeable (in my experience) advantages for your hand health. One of my favorite design items are thumb clusters like you see on the last two links here: why should your thumb be limited to just spacebar, and why should both of your thumbs do the same thing? [1] https://ergodox-ez.com/pages/planck https://ergodox-ez.com/pages/planck [2] https://ergodox-ez.com/ https://ergodox-ez.com/ [3] https://kinesis-ergo.com/shop/advantage2/ https://kinesis-ergo.com/shop/advantage2/

deleted 6y ago
[deleted]
marinhero 6y ago
How’s the Planck keyboard ergonomic? Wouldn’t it make me wrist twist too?
- Palomides 6y ago
  it isn't, though proponents will argue that the small size means you move your hands/fingers less
- strombofulous 6y ago
  60% ortho boards reduce finger travel and reduce the horizontal travel, which is good (try moving your fingers up and down, then moving them left and right - it takes a lot more effort to move them left and right), but if you're going to invest in learning a new keyboard layout you should at least make sure it splits as well so that you don't need to bend your elbows and wrists. I would not recommend just getting an ortholinear board for ergonomics. They definitely look cool though.
  - garren 6y ago
    Amen. Also consider angling it as appropriate. In my experience the difference is pretty noticeable. Ergogox-ez has tent kits which are great. I picked up a couple of 3D printer angled risers that I use with my classic ergodox.
  - lawn 6y ago
    A non-split ortholinear board might even be worse as it causes you to bend your wrists even more than standard keyboards.
- garren 6y ago
  I picked up a Planck kit out of curiosity. I’ve always liked small keyboards. However, I have a hard time understanding how it could be considered ergonomically friendly compared to something like the ergodox. The board is so small that it keeps my wrists at at odd angle when typing. It’s small and convenient when I need a quick spare but I can’t type on it for long.
- Fwirt 6y ago
  A lot of people criticize the Planck for this, but I think the right way to type on a Planck is to treat it like its own beast. Rather than twisting your wrists to face the keyboard straight on, let them angle inward naturally. The grid layout means you don't have to contort your hands to reach the different rows, and if you let your hands "float" above the keyboard rather than putting pressure on your wrists it feels great. Another big mistake is using the default layout, part of the draw of a small layout is that you can customize the layers to your needs. It takes a couple weeks of getting used to but I loved mine so much I built a second one. I hate typing on a staggered layout now, it feels bizarre. That being said, I have no doubt a split layout is superior ergonomically, but it takes up way more space and is more complicated. I would love to try out a Dactyl-Manuform though.
strombofulous 6y ago
I have not heard good things about the ergodox's thumb keys. A lot of people say you need to stretch your thumbs pretty far to use them (even if you have big hands), which kind of works against the goal of not putting stress on your hands.
- garren 6y ago
  I’ve got the classic ergodox (a couple) as well as the ergodox-ez. I’ve been using ergodox for 5-6 years now and have never had an issue with the thumb cluster, but it takes some getting used to, and there is certainly room for improvement. I’m a huge fan of the split layout, and I feel that split layouts are probably a much more significant factor when it comes to reduction of hand stress.
- phaus 6y ago
  I have an Ergodox-EZ. The issue with the thumb keys is that its only natural or easy to hit the bottom 3 for most people. Some people can only hit the bottom 2. That being said, having 3 usable keys per thumb is a game changer IMO and its the best keyboard I've ever used by far. For the ones that are harder to hit I map stuff that I don't usually use often while typing like the escape key. I'm working building a Dactyl manuform. After I printed the case I put the keys in the thumb cluster and threw some keycaps on it to see how it works. IMO its far easier to use all 6 of the keys on the Dactyl's thumb cluster. Also, the dactyl is intended to be further customized per user, so you can actually find variants with less thumb cluster keys if for some reason you don't want them. Some people have even customized them to have trackball replace one of the thumb clusters. It took me about 3 weeks to get reasonably fast and confident typing on my Ergodox, after about 6 weeks I was pretty close to my original speed (approximately 120 WPM). IMO its worth the effort to learn and I will never go back to a keyboard without at least 3 keys per thumb cluster. There might be a more efficient layout, but what I use my easily accessible thumb keys for is space, return, backspace, win key/mac command and other modifiers. For something pretty similar to the Ergodox but with a better thumb cluster, there's the Keyboardio. However, they sold out of the initial run and they are supposedly going to be releasing a new revision soon.
- lawn 6y ago
ken 6y ago
I never understood why ortholinear keyboards aren't the standard. It's bizarre that the fingers on my left hand would move slightly to the left for the top row, but the fingers on my right hand would also move slightly to the left for the top row. And to the right, on both hands, for the bottom row. Fingers don't naturally move like that! My hands have mirror symmetry. Why doesn't my keyboard? The number 6 exemplifies the problem. Touch-typing classes teach that it's pressed by the right hand, but the number row has drifted so far left that it's actually closer to the left hand. Sure enough, (non-ortho) split keyboards can't agree which side of the split to put it on. Sometimes even different models from the same company disagree. Staggered keys is even crazier, to me, than QWERTY. There's no spending 2 weeks relearning where every letter is. There's no messing up spatial mnemonics like Z/X/C/V. It just instantly fixes your fingers from being slightly out of alignment. And the craziest is when touchscreens do it. Keys were only staggered in that funny way to make room for the keylevers. Computer keyboards never had keylevers, but touchscreens really never had keylevers!
- jupp0r 6y ago
  > I never understood why ortholinear keyboards aren't the standard. Same as querty: it’s there so typewriter stamps don’t hit each other.
- IronBacon 6y ago
  You aren't alone, the thing boggles my mind too. I like better staggered columns layout than ortholinear, but yeah staggered rows don't make any sense, I hate using the keyboard in my notebook. Joking, I would say only Apple could find the "courage" to introduce columns staggered/ortholinear keyboards... ^__~
  - ken 6y ago
    You joke, but I've wondered the same thing. Apple, of all companies, is happy to re-examine (or discard) the status quo. They dropped the headphone jack on many products -- as they said, it's "over 100 years old, used to help quickly exchange in switchboards". Yet their keyboards still look pretty much like a 19th-century Remington.

chipperyman573 6y ago

A while back I got diagnosed with carpal and cubital tunnel. After many, many hours of research, I eventually bought a Quefrency from Keebio (https://keeb.io/pages/assembly-service https://keeb.io/pages/assembly-service has the premade ones) to see if it would help. I can now confidently say, if you are worried about getting CT, or you have it and want something easier on your hands, you _need_ to check this out. Seriously, for most people on here an injury like CT can make you lose your job. The split form factor really helps alleviate the pain. Not bending your wrists or elbows helps way more than you can imagine. Even now my hands will still hurt if I use a regular keyboard but I can type on my split board all day long. The Quefrency also has the advantage of not being a different form factor (like the Dactyl), it's just a standard 60% split staggered layout (the smaller form factor helps reduce finger travel as well, but imo it's mostly the split). Plus, it just runs off a pro micro so you can flash your own firmware very easily (it runs on QMK which is open source) I've also heard good things about the levinson and nyquist but I haven't personally tested them. I have also used an Iris for a while and like it a lot, but it looks like they're backordered for now. The viterbi looks a little big imho, but if you want a big split board it would definitely be a good option. I actually am somewhat in the keyboard business right now (I got inspired by how well it worked, and it's really fun!), if anyone has any questions or needs some recommendations feel free to AMA. BTW, if you end up going with a different form factor, be ready to type at 10-20WPM for at least a week or two. When I got my first ortho board, I typed at 13WPM and gained back roughly 5-10WPM a week. You can't use a standard layout while you learn, either, or you lose a ton of the muscle memory.

cerberusss 6y ago
Seconding split keyboards. I'm in the process of building a Quefrency and it's fun. But to have something working right now, I bought the Kinesis Freestyle2, which is available for macOS and Windows, with a Bluetooth version to boot.e
the_pwner224 6y ago
About a year ago I bought half of a Nyquist (6x5 - 5 is standard height minus the F-row, which is not a big deal since you have a second layer) and a Vieterbi (7x5). That gives enough space to fit a full 60% keyboard layout, but unlike the Quefrency the keys are in a grid instead of staggered. Getting used to it didn't take long for me. I can use the computer faster and more efficiently than with a full-size keyboard, since you have a second layer to put buttons onto and so your fingers don't need to move (it's completely programmable; add 30 layers if you want). I had two buttons, one where the Fn key is on laptops (lower left), and one where the enter key normally is (mid right), to switch to the second layer, where I had WASD,QE,RF = arrow keys, home/end, pgup/dn, and hjkl = arrow keys. This is very useful. And stuff like printscreen, media controls, etc. no longer require stretching your fingers or moving your hands. I had space in the corners on both thumbs, and backspace/enter right next to those on the left/right hands. Also useful and saves your pinky from long stretches to backspace. Positioning it naturally aligned with your arms & wrists is also great. Overall, highly recommend the Viterbi - which would give you an extra column beyond what I had. But not sure how it would work in half paired with the new Nyquist revision; the Viterbi hasn't been updated yet iirc. I built that one with loud clicky Cherry Blue switches; recently I switched to the newer revision Nyquist with quiet Matias/Alps tactile switches. The switches are great but very few keycap options; the official ones make it not that quiet since they're not a perfect fit with the keys and thus rattle. The Blues were great but eventually the loudness starts to become just slightly painful; now I use the `bucklespring` program on my computer to simulate it. The new Nyquist has the microcontroller built into the PCB, which simplifies assembly, and adds support for key backlighting, which is useful in the dark. The lack of the 13th column really hurts; with the Nyquist+Viterbi you get a full keyboard with stuff like the F-keys and arrow keys on the second layer. With this I need to put things like +=-_\ and []{} on the second layer. This effectively makes it a triple-layer setup for typing, since you need to use both shift and Fn to write characters, whereas previously Fn was for moving around and doing actions. Even after a long while to get used to it my brain often gets confused and I have to pause for a few seconds to try to figure out how to insert the character. But at the same time lighting is essential (to me) for working at night, and even if that wasn't an issue I don't want to spend another $120 on making a new Viterbi or Nyquist/Viterbi hybrid with quieter keyswitches. So overall the Nyquist seems like the sort of thing hardcore keyboard enthusiasts would buy, and less suitable for programmers (maybe OK for other people). You can head over to /r/mechanicalkeyboards to find plenty of weirdos who would spend $50 on a single keycap and keep a collection of keyboards with 30 keys total. If you don't mind sharing, what do you do in the kb business?

zepto 6y ago

Does anyone have any recommendations for one handed keyboards that are practical?

ves 6y ago
The only one handed keyboard I know of is the one made by matias.
- phaus 6y ago
  Some people have claimed its pretty good. The company claims you can learn to type 80 WPM with one hand. They are super expensive because they were designed specifically for people that have only 1 hand, but there are some people interested in just using a single hand to type so they can work more efficiently with a mouse. However, that might not be a great idea. Some two-handed keyboard reviewers have tried it out and at least one of them thinks its an absolutely horrifying device that he can't imagine anyone learning to type well on. He seemed to think it developed a reputation as being a good one handed computer simply because there aren't any other options.
- fortran77 6y ago
  See this review by Chyrosan of the "Maltron" which was also made for one-handed people. https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=fkGpFeUQ49Y https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=fkGpFeUQ49Y
- bjoli 6y ago
  Which imo currently makes the best tactile dampened mechanical switches as well. Their quiet click switch is silent and tactile, with actually solid tactility (as opposed to just about every other tactile switch out there). People have had some reliability issues though, so it's a mixed bag. They have recently gotten some new tooling, so hopefully they will start making keyboards that look somewhat not like a shit 90s keyboard.
  - ves 6y ago
    Yeah, I love their switches but blew three of them in two years which is pretty unacceptable. I’ve used cherries far longer and never had that problem.

dancek 6y ago

This is an amazing keyboard, and the best thing: it's really easy to modify to suit your needs. I got to try a friend's Dactyl so I had a general idea of what doesn't feel ergonomic to me about it. Then I took some measurements of my fingers, moved the columns around accordingly, somewhat flattened the whole structure and printed it. And got the most ergonomic keyboard I could imagine. (Gee, I really should solder the other side one so I could use it... :s) Of course this is a lot of work and not for most people. But the point is that 3D modeling anything from scratch is near impossible for a first timer, yet the dactyl family is easy to modify for anyone who can code.

bboygravity 6y ago

I'm currently in the process of building one of these Manuform keyboards. If anybody else wants to build one, here are a few helpful things that took me hours to find: 1. By far the most readable closure script. Has more features than any other script I found (killer feature for me: wide pinky buttons): https://github.com/ibnuda/dactyl-keyboard/tree/refaktor https://github.com/ibnuda/dactyl-keyboard/tree/refaktor 2. The same script as a web-form without exposing every parameter. Generates openSCAD 3D files: http://dactyl.siskam.link/manuform http://dactyl.siskam.link/manuform 3. Nice assembly guide 1: https://nickgreen.info/dactyl-manuform-build-log/ https://nickgreen.info/dactyl-manuform-build-log/ 4. Nice assembly guide 2: https://medium.com/swlh/complete-idiot-guide-for-building-a-dactyl-manuform-keyboard-53454845b065 https://medium.com/swlh/complete-idiot-guide-for-building-a-... The original Dactyl and Manuform scripts lack commenting, are hard to understand and lack some cool features.

lrpublic 6y ago

I’m sure I’m one of many people here searching for the ultimate keyboard. I missed the kick starter for the Keyboardio Atreus. I’m looking forward to the launch so I can order one retail. In short it’s a split layout ortholinear similar to the Planck. Two killer features for me are Bluetooth (and wired) and QMK firmware that allows layers. https://shop.keyboard.io/ https://shop.keyboard.io/

emmanueloga_ 6y ago
Atreus is a split kb but on a single piece, so... not quite? For me the nice thing of a split keyboard is to have each half line up with my shoulders, feels really comfy to type like this (this way my arms rest on my chair's armrests most of the time). I looked for a while for a nice split mechanical keyboard and I found all sort of crazy things, including the ones from [1]. In the end, I decided to try the kinesis gaming kb [2] and I really like it! (so much so I even got one for my brother :-) It has some cool macro recording keys and extra buttons to map and other features. Caveat: it is wired. 1: http://reddit.com/r/mechanicalkeyboards http://reddit.com/r/mechanicalkeyboards 2: https://gaming.kinesis-ergo.com/ https://gaming.kinesis-ergo.com/
- enoch_r 6y ago
  The Atreus is by far my favorite keyboard, I have a Keyboardio that I never use because the Atreus is so great. The key is to pull it off your desk and put it in your lap. You end up typing with your hands on your thighs, which feels quite natural and relaxed.

devin 6y ago

I must take this moment to extol the virtues of vertical mice. I had severe pain in my forearm and wrist. I switched to a vertical mouse and that pain went away immediately. I personally use a now 8? year old Evoluent vertical mouse. Tell your friends and family. It's totally unnatural for you to twist your arm to hold a normal flat mouse. The vertical mouse is natural and like shaking someone's hand. Try it right now: Hold your hand out like you're going to shake someone's hand, and then slowly turn your hand to hold a flat mouse. Feel that tension? It's terrible for you.

Symbiote 6y ago
I recently bought an Evoluent vertical mouse. I'm not using it all the time, but one of the best features for a Linux user is the separate middle button. I find mouse-wheel buttons are often stiff, which is uncomfortable when copy-pasting a lot of text using the middle button. The Evoluent has a separate middle button, and a click on the wheel.
bjoli 6y ago
Why a mouse though? Mx ergo can be tilted to about 45 degrees and you don't even have to do a lot of weird arm movements.

fortran77 6y ago

NKRO?

leovander 6y ago

More split keyboards: - Corne: You usually have to solder it yourself, and source the switches/caps. A few sites will build it for you. [0][1[[2] - LilyPro: Same as above. [3][4] - Georgo/GeorgoPlex: [7] Trackball: Someone mentioned a vertical mouse, those are really great, but I have been pushing trackballs on a few colleagues. A good in between is the newer logitech, that has a tilt mechanism, but its a thumbball. [5] You can find more options in at r/trackballs [6]. I can recommend the "Kensington Expert Wireless Trackball Mouse" and "CST L-Trac Blue Trackball", although the latter, the original company shutdown and are being manufactured by xkeys. There's also an open source trackball, ploopy [8]. P.s. buying keyboards and soldering them are great for a quick fix, but this hobby gets expensive quick. I am waiting on a few group buys; another 65% keyboard, another split keyboard and a few more key cap sets. P.s.s. group buys can be a hit or miss (mostly hit), treat them like kickstarters, and maybe you'll get your parts in a year or so. At least in r/mechanicalkeyboards, a few users have recently been complaining a tad more about not seeing the final product v.s. renders. [0] https://github.com/foostan/crkbd https://github.com/foostan/crkbd [1] https://keyhive.xyz/shop/hotswap-corne-helidox https://keyhive.xyz/shop/hotswap-corne-helidox [2] https://www.littlekeyboards.com/products/corne-mx-hotswap-kit https://www.littlekeyboards.com/products/corne-mx-hotswap-ki... [3] https://keyhive.xyz/shop/lily58 https://keyhive.xyz/shop/lily58 [4] https://github.com/kata0510/Lily58 https://github.com/kata0510/Lily58 [6] https://www.reddit.com/r/Trackballs/ https://www.reddit.com/r/Trackballs/ [7] https://www.gboards.ca/ https://www.gboards.ca/ [8] https://www.ploopy.co/ https://www.ploopy.co/

aeontech 6y ago
Ok, gboards are something straight out of Snow Crash. I didn't know I needed this, thanks a lot :)
- leovander 6y ago
  We've been joking around about getting long trrs cables, wrapping around the back side of our office chairs and attaching the keyboards to the arm rests, go all Picard. QMK supports mouse/trackball support, I think gboard and a few others support adding a blackberry track ball and we'd be aces.

1MachineElf 6y ago

I have 3 pairs of the "skeletons" 3D printed, but have never gotten around to the hand-wiring part... It's hassle and one mistake leading to a shorted microcontroller will mean A LOT of desoldering.

jstanley 6y ago
It's unlikely that you'd make a mistake that would damage the microcontroller. The most likely failure modes are a key that never activates, or a key that is stuck activated, or a row/column that never activates, or a row/column that is stuck activated. In the case of a broken row/column, if you can't find the problem visually, then you're stuck binary-searching your connections until you find where it is, but at least that's only O(log N) desoldering work.

joshspankit 6y ago

Here’s a question I’ve been pondering, and I’m curious about the community’s thoughts: To what extent should the distance between keys be customized to the length of the user’s fingers? For example, being 6’1”, I have larger than average hands, with wider than average distance between the tips of my fingers, and if I pay attention, I can feel how my fingers feel cramped on the standard 104-key layout I’ve been using my whole life. Similarly, I see comments here about the differences between people, and the sniff test makes me think it’s almost all about the different lengths of user’s fingers.

Syzygies 6y ago

The Dactyl/Manuform keyboard is a shining totem of one of the deeper rabbit holes out there. I know; I made it back out alive. My aspirational keyboard is a GergoPlex. I own other mechanical keyboards, such as a Planck EZ and an ErgoDox EZ. My actual daily driver is a Leopold FC660C with Topre Silent 45g rubber dome switches, modified with a Hasu FC660C Controller which can be programmed using QMK (or TMK) firmware. My layout is no longer taking most of my time. I use "one finger each hand" chording and "tap/hold" keys to access many custom layers for controlling my computer and editing in VSCode. My fingers rarely move more than one keycap off home row; my thumbs don't get much work. When I'm evaluating a new cookbook I compare recipes I know cold. For comparison, "old school" shaving is another rabbit hole that I survived. What habit stayed with me? A brush and Mitchell´s Wool Fat Shaving Soap. If this has the ring of truth for you, you might draw my same conclusions about mechanical keyboards. Years ago I owned three Kinesis Advantage keyboards. In a way, I loved them. I got rid of them because of too many systematic issues (stuck modifier keys, for example) one could trace to primitive USB hardware they could't afford to redesign. Their new internals might be better. Every so often I'd try a mechanical keyboard to see what I was missing. I wouldn't spend enough, or get wrist rests to adjust to the higher keycaps. Only the better keyboards and switches are worth the trouble; I got hooked once I finally spent enough. Our species wants to meld with machines. Many of us wish we could immerse our hands in nutrients and grow physical connections to our machines. I've met computer scientists working on brain implants; they talk about Alzheimer’s to get grants but their eyes are clearly on the horizon. The mind urge to do this instead in software and custom hardware is irrepressible. One needs to appreciate this to understand the levels of obsession in the keyboard rabbit hole. It's a realm where we all can be Thomas Edison. Your results may vary, but many people conclude that the feel of Topre rubber dome switches is vastly superior to any of the hundreds of mechanical switches now available. This is an obsession killer. Why? You can't buy Topre switches separately. No one makes replacement keycaps, and the adaptors for standard keycaps impair the keyboard feel. The stock keycaps are fine but dull-looking, but what touch typist ever looks at their keyboard? Still, the majority of keyboard forum posts proudly show off custom keycaps. If one were to cannabilize Topre keycaps from an existing keyboard, the printed circuit boards are much harder to design. So one can't experiment with novel designs, such as the Dactyl/Manuform. This leaves customizing the layout, which the Hasu FC660C Controller makes possible. Getting out of that rabbit is a separate problem, for which I don't have good advice. I had been fighting a basic urge to site my consciousness in my hands, a defining identity for our species. I wanted to be outside woodworking, rather than inside programming. Customizing my keyboard was a trick, to get my nose back in the kibble bowl. One day, I was satisfied with my layout, and I moved on. Now, I'm struggling with the urge to write a new programming language, rather than just coding the project I want to finish. I don't have hand issues requiring a more radical ergonomic design, but that may be partly that I don't move my fingers far off home row, even for modifier keys.