8 ms·

It has been terrifying and astounding to see the police response to protests against brutality with... more brutality.

koolba 6y ago
Versus what though? Outnumbered 25:1, rampant looting and mayhem all around, and seeing your mates hit with bottles of water filled with quikcrete, it doesn’t seem unreasonable to me. Just because something makes you feel bad for society doesn’t mean the actions at an individual basis are purely malicious or unreasonable.
- save_ferris 6y ago
  There have been numerous videos recorded of police brutally assaulting peaceful protestors without any kind of provocation. Just look at Buffalo PD shoving an elderly man to the ground and creating a distraction as the cameras start turning on, or the bystander in Austin who was watching away from any crowds and was sniped with a bean bag round that fractured his skull. There’s been an unbelievable amount of violence perpetrated by police these last few weeks. You cannot stand by this argument if you’ve been watching the footage.
  - koolba 6y ago
    > There’s been an unbelievable amount of violence perpetrated by police these last few weeks. You cannot stand by this argument if you’ve been watching the footage. There’s no way you can say with a straight face that the police have committed more acts of violence and destruction than the rioters.
    - augustt 6y ago
      One side is state sanctioned, you don't see why that might be important? And I'm absolutely willing to bet that more _people_, not property have been injured by police than protesters.
    - darkerside 6y ago
      Per capita
    - save_ferris 6y ago
      So police violence is OK as long as it’s less than what the protestors do? That’s an absurd argument. Our taxes pay their salaries, and our taxes also pay their legal settlements and fees when they get caught up killing unarmed black men and women. They live in a system fundamentally devoid of accountability. They deploy tools like tears gas and poorly tested “less lethal” ammunition that still has the ability to permanently and critically injure targets. No amount of violence against peaceful protestors should be tolerated. The police exist to protect the public, not treat them like enemy combatants.
      - mindslight 6y ago
        > They deploy tools like tears gas and poorly tested “less lethal” ammunition Let's stop using abstract passive words like "deploy", and say what the police are actually doing - opening fire on crowds of protestors. I guess they're being nice by using ammo other than lead bullets like at Kent State, but fundamentally they're still shooting projectiles and innocent people are still being killed and maimed.
      - koolba 6y ago
        Anyone that showed up to an 11pm “protest” the day after looters and rioters commandeered the previous night’s gathering knows exactly what they’re enabling and and the risks involved. At that point you’re aiding and abetting the actions of the small minority that are directly causing the damage and in doing so you can’t complain to be caught in the literal crossfire. If a crowd of 1000 people has one person throw a brick at the police. I think it’s well within their rights to tear gas the entire group to disperse them.
        augustt 6y ago
        My turn: if one cop in a crowd of 1000 commits an act of brutality, then it's well within our rights to defund them all.
        roenxi 6y ago
        If by 'our' you mean the Public at Large, it is within your rights to defund them all. The main counterargument is how would that help? The violent cop would still be violent. If the police were abolished they'd sign up as a violent gang member, and if a new not-police body is created they'd sign up to that instead. There is always a most-violent gang on the streets; we just call them the police if they are state-sponsored and ask them to follow the law rather than their own opinions. Defunding the police won't help that dynamic.
    - save_ferris 6y ago
      > There’s no way you can say with a straight face that the police have committed more acts of violence and destruction than the rioters. By this logic, the George Floyd death shouldn’t even be a controversy because the public at large commits more crime in aggregate than the police do.
    - 8note 6y ago
      Medical costs are pretty high in the US. I don't imagine it takes many injured people to make the police damage more expensive than the rioters
    - mulmen 6y ago
      Nobody made that claim. Your straw man cannot stand. There are many examples of unprovoked police violence nationwide. No amount of looting and rioting justifies unprovoked attacks on peaceful protesters. This isn't a game, there is no score.
- komali2 6y ago
  How does looting six blocks away justify firing tear gas at crowds of peaceful protesters?
  - tartoran 6y ago
    Not only that, they should hold themselves to a higher standard, they have training for this type of situations and am sure exerting violence is not a point on a slide. In addition they are theoretically being paid by the protesters as well. There is a problem with the police culture in general that the op you’re respinding to seems to be blind to. There is weird tendency to militarize the police which I hope will start changing soon How many cops does it take to realize that their bullying would eventually backfire? How many judges doesn it take to realize that killer cops getting scott free is going to eventually backfire badly? I hope that they learn their lesson this time and hope it’s going to sting badly
    - 8note 6y ago
      Has it backfired? To my knowledge the cops are all about fine? They're not worried that people are going to kill them in the street with no consequences like black people are
      - tartoran 6y ago
        I think it did backfire. Too much negative attention to police lately. I hear it on the radio, it’s on TV, it’s all over the internet. I think police will see some funding decreases is some places and lots of discussions about police demilitarization are currently taking place. That can have consequences. I think their morale is also affected and it’s horrible that because of some bad/unprofessional officers other good ones have to suffer the bad image. This may help some good internal change as well. One can hope at least
- NoSorryCannot 6y ago
  In both absolute terms and by averages, the protestors have demonstrated better individual restraint than law enforcement. Which is quite an indictment considering the protestors can be joined by, as you noted, and random opportunist or provocateur.
  - mindslight 6y ago
    If an individual wants to be violent and doesn't care much about the repercussions, there are many avenues to be violent that don't involve waiting for a protest. If an individual wants to be violent and avoid repercussions, there aren't many opportunities besides joining the police.
  - flippinburgers 6y ago
    Is there actual data about this that can be viewed somewhere?
  - Natsu 6y ago
    There are 17 dead in the protests so far, 3 by police.
- michaelvmata 6y ago
  That narrative doesn't fit the sheer number of videos showing a violent response to peaceful protest. It's an avalanche of evidence showing hostility, if not outright violence, towards peaceful, legal protests and journalists with press passes covering the situation. What’s shocking to me is the callous disregard the police have towards the very people they’ve sworn to protect right, even as the nation watches. When coupled with the fact that there is almost no accountability except in the most egregious cases that draws enough public outcry to make a politician uncomfortable. This shit is seriously broken.
- megameter 6y ago
  Police being unable to do their job in the face of a mob doesn't justify police violence against mobs, it justifies a reform of the law enforcement system sufficient to satisfy society and restore order. The alternative is to suppress civil liberties, which will violate the Constitution. We have had many peaceful days in the past; they can return. Police are, in fact, given far too many duties. They deal with traffic violations, drunkenness, domestic violence, homelessness, property crimes, public emergencies, and many more things. Most of their time is spent on systemic problems in society that they cannot usefully intervene in, but only obscure with fines, arrests, and talking-to. These are tasks that call for more specialization, and therefore a more stratified set of enforcement tools than the average cop gets. The system makes the cops bad. We spend a lot on them; several U.S. cities spend more on their police than entire countries do on their military. Spending hasn't changed the outcomes. This is why the term "police abolishment" has come into parlance; a full reform of enforcement requires a larger set of concepts than "police".
  - abacadaba 6y ago
    When the mob burns down your city a few nights in a row, the least bad options for breaking up the mob may sometimes be called for. Shit like this can take affected areas decades to recover from. And yes sometimes cops are just dicks on a power trip.
  - dingaling 6y ago
    > Police are, in fact, given far too many duties I don't know about the USA but in Ireland the original standing police force ( the RIC ) was responsible for census duties, farm inspections, tax collection and many other rural duties up until the 1920s. What police forces do now, focused on crime, is only a subset of their original conception as servants of the polis ( society ).

Versus what though? Outnumbered 25:1, rampant looting and mayhem all around, and seeing your mates hit with bottles of water filled with quikcrete, it doesn’t seem unreasonable to me. Just because something makes you feel bad for society doesn’t mean the actions at an individual basis are purely malicious or unreasonable.

save_ferris 6y ago
There have been numerous videos recorded of police brutally assaulting peaceful protestors without any kind of provocation. Just look at Buffalo PD shoving an elderly man to the ground and creating a distraction as the cameras start turning on, or the bystander in Austin who was watching away from any crowds and was sniped with a bean bag round that fractured his skull. There’s been an unbelievable amount of violence perpetrated by police these last few weeks. You cannot stand by this argument if you’ve been watching the footage.
- koolba 6y ago
  > There’s been an unbelievable amount of violence perpetrated by police these last few weeks. You cannot stand by this argument if you’ve been watching the footage. There’s no way you can say with a straight face that the police have committed more acts of violence and destruction than the rioters.
  - augustt 6y ago
    One side is state sanctioned, you don't see why that might be important? And I'm absolutely willing to bet that more _people_, not property have been injured by police than protesters.
  - darkerside 6y ago
    Per capita
  - save_ferris 6y ago
    So police violence is OK as long as it’s less than what the protestors do? That’s an absurd argument. Our taxes pay their salaries, and our taxes also pay their legal settlements and fees when they get caught up killing unarmed black men and women. They live in a system fundamentally devoid of accountability. They deploy tools like tears gas and poorly tested “less lethal” ammunition that still has the ability to permanently and critically injure targets. No amount of violence against peaceful protestors should be tolerated. The police exist to protect the public, not treat them like enemy combatants.
    - mindslight 6y ago
      > They deploy tools like tears gas and poorly tested “less lethal” ammunition Let's stop using abstract passive words like "deploy", and say what the police are actually doing - opening fire on crowds of protestors. I guess they're being nice by using ammo other than lead bullets like at Kent State, but fundamentally they're still shooting projectiles and innocent people are still being killed and maimed.
    - koolba 6y ago
      Anyone that showed up to an 11pm “protest” the day after looters and rioters commandeered the previous night’s gathering knows exactly what they’re enabling and and the risks involved. At that point you’re aiding and abetting the actions of the small minority that are directly causing the damage and in doing so you can’t complain to be caught in the literal crossfire. If a crowd of 1000 people has one person throw a brick at the police. I think it’s well within their rights to tear gas the entire group to disperse them.
      - augustt 6y ago
        My turn: if one cop in a crowd of 1000 commits an act of brutality, then it's well within our rights to defund them all.
        roenxi 6y ago
        If by 'our' you mean the Public at Large, it is within your rights to defund them all. The main counterargument is how would that help? The violent cop would still be violent. If the police were abolished they'd sign up as a violent gang member, and if a new not-police body is created they'd sign up to that instead. There is always a most-violent gang on the streets; we just call them the police if they are state-sponsored and ask them to follow the law rather than their own opinions. Defunding the police won't help that dynamic.
  - save_ferris 6y ago
    > There’s no way you can say with a straight face that the police have committed more acts of violence and destruction than the rioters. By this logic, the George Floyd death shouldn’t even be a controversy because the public at large commits more crime in aggregate than the police do.
  - 8note 6y ago
    Medical costs are pretty high in the US. I don't imagine it takes many injured people to make the police damage more expensive than the rioters
  - mulmen 6y ago
    Nobody made that claim. Your straw man cannot stand. There are many examples of unprovoked police violence nationwide. No amount of looting and rioting justifies unprovoked attacks on peaceful protesters. This isn't a game, there is no score.
komali2 6y ago
How does looting six blocks away justify firing tear gas at crowds of peaceful protesters?
- tartoran 6y ago
  Not only that, they should hold themselves to a higher standard, they have training for this type of situations and am sure exerting violence is not a point on a slide. In addition they are theoretically being paid by the protesters as well. There is a problem with the police culture in general that the op you’re respinding to seems to be blind to. There is weird tendency to militarize the police which I hope will start changing soon How many cops does it take to realize that their bullying would eventually backfire? How many judges doesn it take to realize that killer cops getting scott free is going to eventually backfire badly? I hope that they learn their lesson this time and hope it’s going to sting badly
  - 8note 6y ago
    Has it backfired? To my knowledge the cops are all about fine? They're not worried that people are going to kill them in the street with no consequences like black people are
    - tartoran 6y ago
      I think it did backfire. Too much negative attention to police lately. I hear it on the radio, it’s on TV, it’s all over the internet. I think police will see some funding decreases is some places and lots of discussions about police demilitarization are currently taking place. That can have consequences. I think their morale is also affected and it’s horrible that because of some bad/unprofessional officers other good ones have to suffer the bad image. This may help some good internal change as well. One can hope at least
NoSorryCannot 6y ago
In both absolute terms and by averages, the protestors have demonstrated better individual restraint than law enforcement. Which is quite an indictment considering the protestors can be joined by, as you noted, and random opportunist or provocateur.
- mindslight 6y ago
  If an individual wants to be violent and doesn't care much about the repercussions, there are many avenues to be violent that don't involve waiting for a protest. If an individual wants to be violent and avoid repercussions, there aren't many opportunities besides joining the police.
- flippinburgers 6y ago
  Is there actual data about this that can be viewed somewhere?
- Natsu 6y ago
  There are 17 dead in the protests so far, 3 by police.
michaelvmata 6y ago
That narrative doesn't fit the sheer number of videos showing a violent response to peaceful protest. It's an avalanche of evidence showing hostility, if not outright violence, towards peaceful, legal protests and journalists with press passes covering the situation. What’s shocking to me is the callous disregard the police have towards the very people they’ve sworn to protect right, even as the nation watches. When coupled with the fact that there is almost no accountability except in the most egregious cases that draws enough public outcry to make a politician uncomfortable. This shit is seriously broken.
megameter 6y ago
Police being unable to do their job in the face of a mob doesn't justify police violence against mobs, it justifies a reform of the law enforcement system sufficient to satisfy society and restore order. The alternative is to suppress civil liberties, which will violate the Constitution. We have had many peaceful days in the past; they can return. Police are, in fact, given far too many duties. They deal with traffic violations, drunkenness, domestic violence, homelessness, property crimes, public emergencies, and many more things. Most of their time is spent on systemic problems in society that they cannot usefully intervene in, but only obscure with fines, arrests, and talking-to. These are tasks that call for more specialization, and therefore a more stratified set of enforcement tools than the average cop gets. The system makes the cops bad. We spend a lot on them; several U.S. cities spend more on their police than entire countries do on their military. Spending hasn't changed the outcomes. This is why the term "police abolishment" has come into parlance; a full reform of enforcement requires a larger set of concepts than "police".
- abacadaba 6y ago
  When the mob burns down your city a few nights in a row, the least bad options for breaking up the mob may sometimes be called for. Shit like this can take affected areas decades to recover from. And yes sometimes cops are just dicks on a power trip.
- dingaling 6y ago
  > Police are, in fact, given far too many duties I don't know about the USA but in Ireland the original standing police force ( the RIC ) was responsible for census duties, farm inspections, tax collection and many other rural duties up until the 1920s. What police forces do now, focused on crime, is only a subset of their original conception as servants of the polis ( society ).