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Don't dismiss people being angry and upset at police right now like this. It's extremely disrespectful towards the very real problems they face.

by vore 6y ago

zozbot234 6y ago
I'm not seeing anything dismissive in OP's remark. Opposing police brutality is not the same thing as being anti-police.
- vore 6y ago
  "Very good, adult take. Calm, balanced" is pretty dismissive of people being rightfully angry.
  - zozbot234 6y ago
    So we shouldn't act as adults or be calm and balanced? People can rightfully oppose something in a reasonable way.
    - danaris 6y ago
      That appears to be a strawman argument. Being calm and balanced is good, yes. But that's not the same thing as saying that anger is not justified, and that it automatically means that the angry person should be dismissed and their anger treated as a symptom of an immature or unbalanced person. Vore was simply noting that, given the current circumstances, m0zg's original comment could very easily be read as saying, "Ah, good, here's someone who's actually worth listening to. Not like those angry, irrational protesters."
      - m0zg 6y ago
        The protesters aren't really suggesting anything realistic though. Or if they are, their message is completely drowned out. I feel like society is united around the murder of George Floyd. Now is the time to figure out solutions. Whoever is instigating the riots, however, is driving a wedge into that unity. In the atmosphere of widespread, severe unrest, most people would _easily_ prefer safety over justice. It's been shown again and again. Whoever is driving this wedge knows exactly what they're doing.
        yongjik 6y ago
        Well, many footages show police using excessive force on peaceful protestors: rubber bullets, pepper sprays, shoving people to ground. As you said, I have a feeling that these officers know exactly what they're doing.
        danaris 6y ago
        In several places that I've seen, there have been specific lists of demands that the protesters have given. In general, they center around bringing to justice those officers who have participated in brutality, and effectively reforming the police in their municipalities so that these situations cannot arise again. Frankly, wherever the police are instigating greater violence, they are making more certain that the protests will go on longer and get more publicity than in places where they're being allowed to be peaceful.
    - vore 6y ago
      I literally never said that. I said to not dismiss the angry people. Of course people can talk about it calmly, but putting it on a pedestal as "Very good, adult take" is absolutely patronizing to those affected.
- dredmorbius 6y ago
  In context with earlier comments, it's a credible interpretation: https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=23412122 https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=23412122
  - m0zg 6y ago
    Yes, I am pro-police, and anti-looting. That categorically doesn't mean what you think it means though. I support racial justice. I support police reform, demilitarization, and pushing back against police unions. I think unjustified police brutality, like in the case of George Floyd, should be prosecuted, and it undermines the respect many people have for the police profession. This respect is a _requirement_ for the police to be effective. I also think Chauvin should have been fired in disgrace years ago. My suggestion was in regards to the rather extreme and unjustified comments the public officials were making (and continue to make) towards the police. I hope it is obvious to everyone that without police NYC will be utterly fucked within 24 hours. I stand by those suggestions. If push comes to shove they should go on strike. The vast majority of them are good men and women, and they deserve to be respected. In other words, I'm not 15 years old, I see nuance, and I want some real, lasting solutions to these issues. Sue me.
smbullet 6y ago
Please don't deliberately misinterpret people's comments on this forum.
- vore 6y ago
  Maybe you should read their actual interpretation, then? https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=23442197 https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=23442197 I'm tired of seeing people talk about riots: it doesn't matter because arguing about it gets you nowhere on the real issue of police brutality. Holding up "calmness" as such a positive thing automatically discredits angry people, which is what I'm calling out here.
m0zg 6y ago
I don't recall asking you for what I should or should not do. And in any case, I'm not "dismissing" people who are angry or upset. The case looks pretty clear cut to me: George Floyd's death is tragic and those responsible should be prosecuted. Literally _everyone_ agrees with this. Nor does the article "dismiss" anything. The article presents the most viable, adult way out that I have seen suggested thus far. The fundamental truth of the situation is that you can't disband the police, and "defunding" it, partially or fully, is not a serious solution to the problems we face as a society. Anyone who suggests this with a straight face doesn't want solutions, they want to continue to be angry and upset. We can (and should) reform it. We can (and should) train it better. We can (and should) hire better people to work in it. We can (and should) fire/prosecute bad apples faster where there's evidence of wrongdoing. You CAN'T DO any of this by stigmatizing the police profession or reducing funding. It's not a serious suggestion. You also can't do that by burning a police car or looting a Target. I hope these truths are self-evident enough, but if not, I don't know what to tell you.
- dredmorbius 6y ago
  Given the structural issues with police departments, training, unions, prosecutors, the history of policing, a complete disassembly and start from fresh principles may well be warranted.
  - m0zg 6y ago
    Not a realistic suggestion. Read the article, please. At the moment you're parroting The Internationale even without knowing it: https://simple.wikipedia.org/wiki/The_Internationale https://simple.wikipedia.org/wiki/The_Internationale I don't need to remind you where this particular road ends. As someone who grew up under a communist regime, believe me when I tell you this: you won't like it.
DenisM 6y ago
Respect for remaining calm is not the same as disrespect for being un-calm. Binary thinking of this sort is the root of our problems.

Don't dismiss people being angry and upset at police right now like this. It's extremely disrespectful towards the very real problems they face.

by vore 6y ago

Don't dismiss people being angry and upset at police right now like this. It's extremely disrespectful towards the very real problems they face.

zozbot234 6y ago

I'm not seeing anything dismissive in OP's remark. Opposing police brutality is not the same thing as being anti-police.

vore 6y ago
"Very good, adult take. Calm, balanced" is pretty dismissive of people being rightfully angry.
- zozbot234 6y ago
  So we shouldn't act as adults or be calm and balanced? People can rightfully oppose something in a reasonable way.
  - danaris 6y ago
    That appears to be a strawman argument. Being calm and balanced is good, yes. But that's not the same thing as saying that anger is not justified, and that it automatically means that the angry person should be dismissed and their anger treated as a symptom of an immature or unbalanced person. Vore was simply noting that, given the current circumstances, m0zg's original comment could very easily be read as saying, "Ah, good, here's someone who's actually worth listening to. Not like those angry, irrational protesters."
    - m0zg 6y ago
      The protesters aren't really suggesting anything realistic though. Or if they are, their message is completely drowned out. I feel like society is united around the murder of George Floyd. Now is the time to figure out solutions. Whoever is instigating the riots, however, is driving a wedge into that unity. In the atmosphere of widespread, severe unrest, most people would _easily_ prefer safety over justice. It's been shown again and again. Whoever is driving this wedge knows exactly what they're doing.
      - yongjik 6y ago
        Well, many footages show police using excessive force on peaceful protestors: rubber bullets, pepper sprays, shoving people to ground. As you said, I have a feeling that these officers know exactly what they're doing.
      - danaris 6y ago
        In several places that I've seen, there have been specific lists of demands that the protesters have given. In general, they center around bringing to justice those officers who have participated in brutality, and effectively reforming the police in their municipalities so that these situations cannot arise again. Frankly, wherever the police are instigating greater violence, they are making more certain that the protests will go on longer and get more publicity than in places where they're being allowed to be peaceful.
  - vore 6y ago
    I literally never said that. I said to not dismiss the angry people. Of course people can talk about it calmly, but putting it on a pedestal as "Very good, adult take" is absolutely patronizing to those affected.
dredmorbius 6y ago
In context with earlier comments, it's a credible interpretation: https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=23412122 https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=23412122
- m0zg 6y ago
  Yes, I am pro-police, and anti-looting. That categorically doesn't mean what you think it means though. I support racial justice. I support police reform, demilitarization, and pushing back against police unions. I think unjustified police brutality, like in the case of George Floyd, should be prosecuted, and it undermines the respect many people have for the police profession. This respect is a _requirement_ for the police to be effective. I also think Chauvin should have been fired in disgrace years ago. My suggestion was in regards to the rather extreme and unjustified comments the public officials were making (and continue to make) towards the police. I hope it is obvious to everyone that without police NYC will be utterly fucked within 24 hours. I stand by those suggestions. If push comes to shove they should go on strike. The vast majority of them are good men and women, and they deserve to be respected. In other words, I'm not 15 years old, I see nuance, and I want some real, lasting solutions to these issues. Sue me.

smbullet 6y ago

Please don't deliberately misinterpret people's comments on this forum.

vore 6y ago
Maybe you should read their actual interpretation, then? https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=23442197 https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=23442197 I'm tired of seeing people talk about riots: it doesn't matter because arguing about it gets you nowhere on the real issue of police brutality. Holding up "calmness" as such a positive thing automatically discredits angry people, which is what I'm calling out here.

m0zg 6y ago

I don't recall asking you for what I should or should not do. And in any case, I'm not "dismissing" people who are angry or upset. The case looks pretty clear cut to me: George Floyd's death is tragic and those responsible should be prosecuted. Literally _everyone_ agrees with this. Nor does the article "dismiss" anything. The article presents the most viable, adult way out that I have seen suggested thus far. The fundamental truth of the situation is that you can't disband the police, and "defunding" it, partially or fully, is not a serious solution to the problems we face as a society. Anyone who suggests this with a straight face doesn't want solutions, they want to continue to be angry and upset. We can (and should) reform it. We can (and should) train it better. We can (and should) hire better people to work in it. We can (and should) fire/prosecute bad apples faster where there's evidence of wrongdoing. You CAN'T DO any of this by stigmatizing the police profession or reducing funding. It's not a serious suggestion. You also can't do that by burning a police car or looting a Target. I hope these truths are self-evident enough, but if not, I don't know what to tell you.

dredmorbius 6y ago
Given the structural issues with police departments, training, unions, prosecutors, the history of policing, a complete disassembly and start from fresh principles may well be warranted.
- m0zg 6y ago
  Not a realistic suggestion. Read the article, please. At the moment you're parroting The Internationale even without knowing it: https://simple.wikipedia.org/wiki/The_Internationale https://simple.wikipedia.org/wiki/The_Internationale I don't need to remind you where this particular road ends. As someone who grew up under a communist regime, believe me when I tell you this: you won't like it.

DenisM 6y ago

Respect for remaining calm is not the same as disrespect for being un-calm. Binary thinking of this sort is the root of our problems.