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Where besides the US do you see gang violence making cities deadlier than a warzone? The militarization of police seems to be a function of adapting to the job

Where besides the US do you see gang violence making cities deadlier than a warzone? The militarization of police seems to be a function of adapting to the job they're responsible for.

StreamBright 6y ago
Mexico comes in mind. Interestingly it turned into a war zone after guns from the US started to show up.
- jki275 6y ago
  No. Don't be ridiculous. The Cartels import weapons by the container load, and not from the US. And that's not including the ones they steal or just appropriate from their own government.
  - StreamBright 6y ago
    https://nypost.com/2013/12/01/book-excerpt-how-america-gave-guns-to-mexican-drug-cartels/ https://nypost.com/2013/12/01/book-excerpt-how-america-gave-...
    - jki275 6y ago
      It's a nice story. Claiming violence in Mexico started because of an idiotic plan to trace 2000 guns in the border area in 2006 is absurd.
      - StreamBright 6y ago
        Read again what I wrote. And please read wikipedia on the subject https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Mexican_Drug_War https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Mexican_Drug_War
        jki275 6y ago
        I’m very well informed on the fast and furious scandal. I don’t care what Wikipedia has to say about anything - especially where guns are concerned.
brnt 6y ago
No, it's a fight fire with fire mentality that causes militarization. From a European perspective the lack of preventative measures could seem laughable if it wasn't so serious. Mental health for starters. Gun availability obviously too. Police here (OK, not all Police traditions do this here either) take deescalation training far more than gun training. There's a few case studies on French-Dutch comparisons in that regard that should be enlightening. You don't need to win in a gunfight in order to win.
- andi999 6y ago
  Actually I believe the biggest reason could be mundane. As far as I understand most US police officers are working alone. So even one unarmed sucker punch means game over. I would be scared. In Europe police patrol is usually 2 police officers, so there is much less worry, which allows you to deal with the situations more relaxed.
- luckylion 6y ago
  > From a European perspective I don't think there is a European perspective. We haven't had anything close to the gang crime problem in the US in a long time, and when we did have it, guns weren't a thing. It's obvious that there are lots of issues, but "look, we don't have them because we do X" doesn't work when we didn't have anything comparable in the first place. I'm certain that we would see very different policies if London, Paris or Berlin had the murder rate of Chicago, and it wouldn't be "let's spend more money on mental health".
  - brnt 6y ago
    I know many Americans won't (want to) see it that way, but yeah, that's precisely what we did. What you see in the US is not effective, it is however very old-testament. I guess it makes at least some feel better, fighting fire with fire.
    - luckylion 6y ago
      > I know many Americans won't (want to) see it that way, but yeah, that's precisely what we did. No, it's really not, and "you're American, you just don't want to see it" is not an argument. And if it was, it wouldn't work, because I'm not American and am not living in the US. Born, raised and still living in Europe. That's how I know that we never had anything like the US situation in recent history. Hell, even during the world wars when criminals would've had a field day, it wasn't anywhere close.
nrser 6y ago
Spending the night hanging out with people from Syria I think they might disagree with your depiction of US cities. Measurements in mm are different than those in lbs.
pwned1 6y ago
I take it you’ve never read about or been to places in Central America, such as Guatemala City.
- luckylion 6y ago
  That kind of makes his point though, doesn't it? Those places usually also see the militarization of police, or straight up the military taking on law enforcement duties.
empath75 6y ago
Us cities aren’t deadlier than a warzone. I used to go to nightclubs in the most violent neighborhood in dc in the middle of the crack epidemic as a naive suburban white kid and never felt unsafe and the worst thing that ever happened was my car getting broken into. I’ve been to places in the developing world where drug gangs drive around on trucks with mounted machine guns. There’s nowhere in the US like that.
- andi999 6y ago
  Not feeling unsafe doesnt mean it is safe (and vice versa).
  - empath75 6y ago
    Statistically it’s not even close. Even in really dangerous cities like Chicago or New Orleans, they pale in comparison to how many people are dying in Syria or even in places like San Salvador — and even San Salvador isn’t that bad.
olliej 6y ago
Where aside from the US do you see police shooting unarmed people? The fact is that police decided to escalate their response to gun crime is entirely on them. The desire to turn things into a "war" between police and non-police validates the decision to use guns against police. After all they're soldiers. Further more the consistently abusive behavior of police and complete lack of consequences reinforces to abused communities that police are no different from any other gang, with the exception that they will never be arrested. That again justifies treating them as just another violent gang, and so use of equivalent force against them is reasonable. Police also are more violent, and push harsher charges, against specific communities. By doing that they've established that they are not operating fairly, and that lack of fairness further establishes police as an enemy.

Where besides the US do you see gang violence making cities deadlier than a warzone? The militarization of police seems to be a function of adapting to the job they're responsible for.

StreamBright 6y ago

Mexico comes in mind. Interestingly it turned into a war zone after guns from the US started to show up.

jki275 6y ago
No. Don't be ridiculous. The Cartels import weapons by the container load, and not from the US. And that's not including the ones they steal or just appropriate from their own government.
- StreamBright 6y ago
  https://nypost.com/2013/12/01/book-excerpt-how-america-gave-guns-to-mexican-drug-cartels/ https://nypost.com/2013/12/01/book-excerpt-how-america-gave-...
  - jki275 6y ago
    It's a nice story. Claiming violence in Mexico started because of an idiotic plan to trace 2000 guns in the border area in 2006 is absurd.
    - StreamBright 6y ago
      Read again what I wrote. And please read wikipedia on the subject https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Mexican_Drug_War https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Mexican_Drug_War
      - jki275 6y ago
        I’m very well informed on the fast and furious scandal. I don’t care what Wikipedia has to say about anything - especially where guns are concerned.

brnt 6y ago

No, it's a fight fire with fire mentality that causes militarization. From a European perspective the lack of preventative measures could seem laughable if it wasn't so serious. Mental health for starters. Gun availability obviously too. Police here (OK, not all Police traditions do this here either) take deescalation training far more than gun training. There's a few case studies on French-Dutch comparisons in that regard that should be enlightening. You don't need to win in a gunfight in order to win.

andi999 6y ago
Actually I believe the biggest reason could be mundane. As far as I understand most US police officers are working alone. So even one unarmed sucker punch means game over. I would be scared. In Europe police patrol is usually 2 police officers, so there is much less worry, which allows you to deal with the situations more relaxed.
luckylion 6y ago
> From a European perspective I don't think there is a European perspective. We haven't had anything close to the gang crime problem in the US in a long time, and when we did have it, guns weren't a thing. It's obvious that there are lots of issues, but "look, we don't have them because we do X" doesn't work when we didn't have anything comparable in the first place. I'm certain that we would see very different policies if London, Paris or Berlin had the murder rate of Chicago, and it wouldn't be "let's spend more money on mental health".
- brnt 6y ago
  I know many Americans won't (want to) see it that way, but yeah, that's precisely what we did. What you see in the US is not effective, it is however very old-testament. I guess it makes at least some feel better, fighting fire with fire.
  - luckylion 6y ago
    > I know many Americans won't (want to) see it that way, but yeah, that's precisely what we did. No, it's really not, and "you're American, you just don't want to see it" is not an argument. And if it was, it wouldn't work, because I'm not American and am not living in the US. Born, raised and still living in Europe. That's how I know that we never had anything like the US situation in recent history. Hell, even during the world wars when criminals would've had a field day, it wasn't anywhere close.

nrser 6y ago

Spending the night hanging out with people from Syria I think they might disagree with your depiction of US cities. Measurements in mm are different than those in lbs.

pwned1 6y ago

I take it you’ve never read about or been to places in Central America, such as Guatemala City.

luckylion 6y ago
That kind of makes his point though, doesn't it? Those places usually also see the militarization of police, or straight up the military taking on law enforcement duties.

empath75 6y ago

Us cities aren’t deadlier than a warzone. I used to go to nightclubs in the most violent neighborhood in dc in the middle of the crack epidemic as a naive suburban white kid and never felt unsafe and the worst thing that ever happened was my car getting broken into. I’ve been to places in the developing world where drug gangs drive around on trucks with mounted machine guns. There’s nowhere in the US like that.

andi999 6y ago
Not feeling unsafe doesnt mean it is safe (and vice versa).
- empath75 6y ago
  Statistically it’s not even close. Even in really dangerous cities like Chicago or New Orleans, they pale in comparison to how many people are dying in Syria or even in places like San Salvador — and even San Salvador isn’t that bad.

olliej 6y ago

Where aside from the US do you see police shooting unarmed people? The fact is that police decided to escalate their response to gun crime is entirely on them. The desire to turn things into a "war" between police and non-police validates the decision to use guns against police. After all they're soldiers. Further more the consistently abusive behavior of police and complete lack of consequences reinforces to abused communities that police are no different from any other gang, with the exception that they will never be arrested. That again justifies treating them as just another violent gang, and so use of equivalent force against them is reasonable. Police also are more violent, and push harsher charges, against specific communities. By doing that they've established that they are not operating fairly, and that lack of fairness further establishes police as an enemy.