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> My top earning friends in Canada of the same experience level earn 2 - 4 times less than me and my peers here 2 is possible, 4 seems like a big stretch. Are

> My top earning friends in Canada of the same experience level earn 2 - 4 times less than me and my peers here 2 is possible, 4 seems like a big stretch. Are you really comparing apples to apples? Or are you working for Google and comparing against someone working for a random consultancy firm in Victoria? In Montréal, top software developers salaries are around 200K CAD, a bit more if you go at Google, and Montreal pays less than other cities.

dleslie 6y ago
They said it was the beginning of their career. Particularly on the island, in Victoria, it's quite possible for an entry level position to earn only around 33,000 to 45,000 CDN.
- MikeTheRocker 6y ago
  At the risk of sounding like I'm boasting, I'll share concrete figures. I earn about $285k USD (~$380k CAD) as an L4 SWE at a FANG company. My top earning friends in BC work at companies like Microsoft, Amazon, and Juul and earn about $60-$120k CAD.
  - dleslie 6y ago
    Then you're probably an outlier; that's well outside of the normal for software engineers in California based on data I can find.
    - ponker 6y ago
      FAANG engineers are the highest paid 10% of software engineers in California.
      - dleslie 6y ago
        Sure, but not every software engineer in California is a FAANG engineer; and even among FAANG engineers that stated salary is rather high. It's not particularly useful to make claims that one can earn enormous amounts by changing region without also acknowledging that such an opportunity is only available to a small minority.
        ponker 6y ago
        Among FAANG engineers $285K is not high.
        throwmyusername 6y ago
        For L4, 285k is within ballpark. "Among FAANG engineers" is a big pool from L3 all the way to L5/L6.
        MikeTheRocker 6y ago
        You're right that this is achievable only by a small percentage of people at the upper end of incomes, but I am comparing the same category of companies across both regions. Microsoft in Seattle vs Microsoft in Vancouver can be a 1.5-2x difference for example.
        dleslie 6y ago
        1.5-2x is a much narrower range, and smaller limits, than the 2-4x you posted earlier.
        MikeTheRocker 6y ago
        I'm saving over $100k USD per year after rent, food, phone, entertainment, etc. at age 24. This is impossible in Canada or most other parts of the world. My situation is not unique either, I know dozens of young engineers working at mid to high compensation companies earning around the same. Contrast this with new grads and mid level engineers in Canada earning < $75k USD and it's a no brainer to work here.
        dleslie 6y ago
        That smacks of sample bias and survivorship bias. Sure, you and your social sphere have done well; but what about the population in aggregate? Not everyone will or can work at a FAANG, or is competent enough to rise to that compensation level within those companies.
  - neonate 6y ago
    Thanks for sharing this. People don't realize, and often refuse to believe, how large this gap has gotten. (Patio11 has written about that quite a bit.) It's...crazy.
  - baseballMan 6y ago
    Damn man.. I really need to just suck it up and try and get a job in the US when COVID wraps up and we can get across the border again. I don't really want to work there and be so far away from family but it just doesn't make financial sense to keep doing what I'm doing. I make really good money for my 3 years of experience (compared to others in my city with my level of experience) but it's just such a hilariously large gap at this point that it'd be dumb for me not to at least try and get a job.
    - brailsafe 6y ago
      I'd visit first and see if you want to live there more than Canada. I generally quite like Vancouver, and although I don't have the visa requirements for the states, I have no interest in moving on-location there despite the financial gap. I'd focus on what your interests are outside of work and then work to accommodate that.
  - fsociety 6y ago
    Yep this is pretty similar to my experience
  - raydev 6y ago
    I wonder if this is a BC-specific problem, because Amazon and Shopify appear to be paying seniors in Toronto around $150-200k CAD/year+RSUs. With Google opening an office, and Snap already here, and Yelp already here, and Square already here, and others, I think the market in Toronto has already started changing.
    - MikeTheRocker 6y ago
      Even if they were making $250k CAD total compensation in Toronto, as a senior engineer at top companies in the Bay Area, Seattle, NYC, etc. you can make $350-$400k USD ($470-530k CAD). We're talking about earning $150-$200k more. Working just 5-10 years with savings like this would be life changing.
      - raydev 6y ago
        I wasn't arguing that at all, only that things appear to be much better for SEs in Toronto than Vancouver for some reason. And I've said elsewhere in thread, I'd happily move my family down (I'm a US citizen) if I thought it was possible to buy health insurance that would guarantee coverage for all issues. I've heard too many stories of insurance companies refusing to pay for emergency treatments because the hospital happened to be out of network.
  - aprdm 6y ago
    Amazon certainly pays around 200k cad total compensation in Vancouver now a days..
  - Voloskaya 6y ago
    > My top earning friends in BC work at companies like Microsoft, Amazon, and Juul and earn about $60-$120k CAD Are your top earning friends L4 or equivalent? If not the comparison is worthless. Those looks very much like junior level salaries. 90-100K$ CAD for a junior position at one of the FANG in Canada is as low as you can go.
    - dleslie 6y ago
      SAP paid that well when I worked there five years ago, and they're right down on Hamilton street.
- jayparth 6y ago
  The best jobs? Granted I don't know what "the best jobs" are in Victoria, but that seems surprising. Are there big tech offices in Victoria? If there aren't good jobs there then it's a different story.
  - dleslie 6y ago
    There's hardly anything in Victoria. It's a Government and Retirement town. Edit: apparently my perspective is dated; see the replies.
    - TheBiffer 6y ago
      No so. Victoria has a thriving software community.
      - deleted 6y ago
        [deleted]
    - chrisfosterelli 6y ago
      Tech is the city's biggest industry. https://www.victoriachamber.ca/about-victoria.html https://www.victoriachamber.ca/about-victoria.html
      - dleslie 6y ago
        Was just reading this; sounds like tech started becoming a growth industry recently. Neat! https://www.vicnews.com/business/booming-tech-sector-in-greater-victoria-could-be-threatened-by-lack-of-physical-space-executive-talent/ https://www.vicnews.com/business/booming-tech-sector-in-grea...
  - chrisfosterelli 6y ago
    There's a significant amount of startups / medium companies / consultancies but no "heavy hitter" offices like FAMGA, which is probably a driver behind the state of salaries. There is some Amazon presence through an acquisition they made on ABE books. Though there's also lots of remote workers here too for big companies like Github / etc.
betaby 6y ago
200K CAD is basically unheard in Montreal for the IC. I know only one person with total compensation like that and she is kind of tech manager. 135K Cad is very high in Montreal for IC, median for the senior developer is around 90k, 100K considered very good.
- Voloskaya 6y ago
  It's high but not unheard of (I am talking about total comp, not base salary). I know plenty of IC making that and more. Of course I am biased, since I work for an employer that does pay that kind of salary, so of course I know a lot of my colleagues. This might only be achievable if you work for one the top AI companies in the city however (Google Brain, Facebook Lab, Microsoft etc.). I don't really know how it's like outside of my bubble. And I agree that this is not common at all but OP was talking about "top earning" friends. However, even taking your median figure of 100k, I doubt the median salary in the bay for a senior software engineer is 300K USD (4 times more).
  - betaby 6y ago
    Facebook Lab is how many employees in Montreal? 10? Microsoft doesn't pay 200k CAD in Montreal in total comp to IC not even close to that.
    - Voloskaya 6y ago
      > Microsoft doesn't pay 200k CAD in Montreal in total comp to IC not even close to that. You might want to get more up to date info on that.
- chrisandchips 6y ago
  To OP, or another curious reader, I think you need to take these kinds of posts with a grain of salt. That salary is rare in montreal, but it is also an extremely affordable city to live in. If you are seeking a comfortable life, I personally don’t think you need to be sweating whether you’re earning 120k or 200k CAD in a city like that.

dleslie 6y ago

They said it was the beginning of their career. Particularly on the island, in Victoria, it's quite possible for an entry level position to earn only around 33,000 to 45,000 CDN.

MikeTheRocker 6y ago
At the risk of sounding like I'm boasting, I'll share concrete figures. I earn about $285k USD (~$380k CAD) as an L4 SWE at a FANG company. My top earning friends in BC work at companies like Microsoft, Amazon, and Juul and earn about $60-$120k CAD.
- dleslie 6y ago
  Then you're probably an outlier; that's well outside of the normal for software engineers in California based on data I can find.
  - ponker 6y ago
    FAANG engineers are the highest paid 10% of software engineers in California.
    - dleslie 6y ago
      Sure, but not every software engineer in California is a FAANG engineer; and even among FAANG engineers that stated salary is rather high. It's not particularly useful to make claims that one can earn enormous amounts by changing region without also acknowledging that such an opportunity is only available to a small minority.
      - ponker 6y ago
        Among FAANG engineers $285K is not high.
        throwmyusername 6y ago
        For L4, 285k is within ballpark. "Among FAANG engineers" is a big pool from L3 all the way to L5/L6.
      - MikeTheRocker 6y ago
        You're right that this is achievable only by a small percentage of people at the upper end of incomes, but I am comparing the same category of companies across both regions. Microsoft in Seattle vs Microsoft in Vancouver can be a 1.5-2x difference for example.
        dleslie 6y ago
        1.5-2x is a much narrower range, and smaller limits, than the 2-4x you posted earlier.
        MikeTheRocker 6y ago
        I'm saving over $100k USD per year after rent, food, phone, entertainment, etc. at age 24. This is impossible in Canada or most other parts of the world. My situation is not unique either, I know dozens of young engineers working at mid to high compensation companies earning around the same. Contrast this with new grads and mid level engineers in Canada earning < $75k USD and it's a no brainer to work here.
        dleslie 6y ago
        That smacks of sample bias and survivorship bias. Sure, you and your social sphere have done well; but what about the population in aggregate? Not everyone will or can work at a FAANG, or is competent enough to rise to that compensation level within those companies.
- neonate 6y ago
  Thanks for sharing this. People don't realize, and often refuse to believe, how large this gap has gotten. (Patio11 has written about that quite a bit.) It's...crazy.
- baseballMan 6y ago
  Damn man.. I really need to just suck it up and try and get a job in the US when COVID wraps up and we can get across the border again. I don't really want to work there and be so far away from family but it just doesn't make financial sense to keep doing what I'm doing. I make really good money for my 3 years of experience (compared to others in my city with my level of experience) but it's just such a hilariously large gap at this point that it'd be dumb for me not to at least try and get a job.
  - brailsafe 6y ago
    I'd visit first and see if you want to live there more than Canada. I generally quite like Vancouver, and although I don't have the visa requirements for the states, I have no interest in moving on-location there despite the financial gap. I'd focus on what your interests are outside of work and then work to accommodate that.
- fsociety 6y ago
  Yep this is pretty similar to my experience
- raydev 6y ago
  I wonder if this is a BC-specific problem, because Amazon and Shopify appear to be paying seniors in Toronto around $150-200k CAD/year+RSUs. With Google opening an office, and Snap already here, and Yelp already here, and Square already here, and others, I think the market in Toronto has already started changing.
  - MikeTheRocker 6y ago
    Even if they were making $250k CAD total compensation in Toronto, as a senior engineer at top companies in the Bay Area, Seattle, NYC, etc. you can make $350-$400k USD ($470-530k CAD). We're talking about earning $150-$200k more. Working just 5-10 years with savings like this would be life changing.
    - raydev 6y ago
      I wasn't arguing that at all, only that things appear to be much better for SEs in Toronto than Vancouver for some reason. And I've said elsewhere in thread, I'd happily move my family down (I'm a US citizen) if I thought it was possible to buy health insurance that would guarantee coverage for all issues. I've heard too many stories of insurance companies refusing to pay for emergency treatments because the hospital happened to be out of network.
- aprdm 6y ago
  Amazon certainly pays around 200k cad total compensation in Vancouver now a days..
- Voloskaya 6y ago
  > My top earning friends in BC work at companies like Microsoft, Amazon, and Juul and earn about $60-$120k CAD Are your top earning friends L4 or equivalent? If not the comparison is worthless. Those looks very much like junior level salaries. 90-100K$ CAD for a junior position at one of the FANG in Canada is as low as you can go.
  - dleslie 6y ago
    SAP paid that well when I worked there five years ago, and they're right down on Hamilton street.
jayparth 6y ago
The best jobs? Granted I don't know what "the best jobs" are in Victoria, but that seems surprising. Are there big tech offices in Victoria? If there aren't good jobs there then it's a different story.
- dleslie 6y ago
  There's hardly anything in Victoria. It's a Government and Retirement town. Edit: apparently my perspective is dated; see the replies.
  - TheBiffer 6y ago
    No so. Victoria has a thriving software community.
    - deleted 6y ago
      [deleted]
  - chrisfosterelli 6y ago
    Tech is the city's biggest industry. https://www.victoriachamber.ca/about-victoria.html https://www.victoriachamber.ca/about-victoria.html
    - dleslie 6y ago
      Was just reading this; sounds like tech started becoming a growth industry recently. Neat! https://www.vicnews.com/business/booming-tech-sector-in-greater-victoria-could-be-threatened-by-lack-of-physical-space-executive-talent/ https://www.vicnews.com/business/booming-tech-sector-in-grea...
- chrisfosterelli 6y ago
  There's a significant amount of startups / medium companies / consultancies but no "heavy hitter" offices like FAMGA, which is probably a driver behind the state of salaries. There is some Amazon presence through an acquisition they made on ABE books. Though there's also lots of remote workers here too for big companies like Github / etc.

betaby 6y ago

200K CAD is basically unheard in Montreal for the IC. I know only one person with total compensation like that and she is kind of tech manager. 135K Cad is very high in Montreal for IC, median for the senior developer is around 90k, 100K considered very good.

Voloskaya 6y ago
It's high but not unheard of (I am talking about total comp, not base salary). I know plenty of IC making that and more. Of course I am biased, since I work for an employer that does pay that kind of salary, so of course I know a lot of my colleagues. This might only be achievable if you work for one the top AI companies in the city however (Google Brain, Facebook Lab, Microsoft etc.). I don't really know how it's like outside of my bubble. And I agree that this is not common at all but OP was talking about "top earning" friends. However, even taking your median figure of 100k, I doubt the median salary in the bay for a senior software engineer is 300K USD (4 times more).
- betaby 6y ago
  Facebook Lab is how many employees in Montreal? 10? Microsoft doesn't pay 200k CAD in Montreal in total comp to IC not even close to that.
  - Voloskaya 6y ago
    > Microsoft doesn't pay 200k CAD in Montreal in total comp to IC not even close to that. You might want to get more up to date info on that.
chrisandchips 6y ago
To OP, or another curious reader, I think you need to take these kinds of posts with a grain of salt. That salary is rare in montreal, but it is also an extremely affordable city to live in. If you are seeking a comfortable life, I personally don’t think you need to be sweating whether you’re earning 120k or 200k CAD in a city like that.