6 ms·

Largest issue I have with Snap is that it appears to assume the owner of a system is not in best position to make choices for their own systems. Sure, this mig

by billme 6y ago

Largest issue I have with Snap is that it appears to assume the owner of a system is not in best position to make choices for their own systems. Sure, this might be true for the average user, but it is toxic to the “super user” community that’s in the best position to help support the larger community and may end up pushing them away. Snap at the very least should have an opt-out feature, if not be opt-in during an install. More criticisms maybe found here: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Snap_(package_manager)#Criticism https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Snap_(package_manager)#Critici...

BiteCode_dev 6y ago
There is an opt out feature: diversity. You can always use only the system package manager, or use a distro that doesn't use snap. All those complaints feel so moot. It's really hard to be in FOSS nowaday: you can't make a move without your users judging you all along the way, because a lot of them are idealists that expect a lot from you, yet don't think about the non tech saavy users. It's way easier to make proprietary software: most of your users don't criticise any single decision you make, you don't have to justify yourself, you get much more users, and you make money out of it.
- yjftsjthsd-h 6y ago
  > It's way easier to make proprietary software: most of your users don't criticise any single decision you make, you don't have to justify yourself, you get much more users, and you make money out of it. Why on Earth would you think that users of proprietary software don't criticize it? I'm pretty sure that Windows gets more criticism than Ubuntu...
  - BiteCode_dev 6y ago
    Take zoom: in HN we heard a lot of complains for ethical reasons, but the biggest part of the user base doesn't care and are just happy with it. On FOSS, you'll have complains about the software it self AND ethics from most of your users, because they are mostly technical, and contains way more idealists than the average user sample.
bzb4 6y ago
Super users should be using Debian. Not being snarky.
- pmontra 6y ago
  I'm a super user but the last time I tried to use Debian as a desktop OS the experience was so disappointing that I reformatted to Ubuntu. I gave a shot to KDE and reformatted again to Gnome after a couple of weeks. That was 2014. I removed Debian as a possibility, KDE maybe someday. On a server Debian is OK.
  - bzb4 6y ago
    What didn’t you like about Debian on the desktop? Old software?
    - pmontra 6y ago
      I don't remember exactly, it was 6 years ago. I remember the general feeling of having to do too much work to get a usable desktop. Maybe the settings? Keep in mind that I don't need anything fancy. I liked Gnome 2 and I stayed with Gnome Fallback until last year when there were enough Gnome Shell extensions to bend it to what I like a desktop to be. Maybe Debian is on par now. Old software can be worked around with containers and third party apt repositories. I often do that on Ubuntu too.
      - dleslie 6y ago
        Debian has improved greatly in the last six years. Try it with the xfce or mate flavours.
    - billme 6y ago
      I personally use any distro based on the situation. As others have pointed out, common reasoning behind picking a distro include: hardware requirements, existing ecosystems, end user, package management, configurableness, security, long-term support, ease of learning, driver support, core dev team’s opinions, funding, etc.
dilandau 6y ago
There are parallels with the Gnome team's stance that "we know what's best for you", and that turns off a lot of linux users. There is a tension between those who wish to turn linux into Mac OS or Windows, and those who want fine-grained control over the workings of their computer. The arrogance of the gnome team and the snap apologists is a huge red flag to me. I don't use Ubuntu or Gnome, and I'm glad linux provides me that choice.
- gentleman11 6y ago
  I find gnome to be pretty configurable. The opinionated defaults aren’t so bad because you can just replace the environment if you dislike it
  - ludamad 6y ago
    The problem is configuration churn. A lot of gnome2 stuff didn't carry over if I recall and had to be reinvented for gnome3
    - cg505 6y ago
      Gnome 3 has been out for 9 years now, which is longer than the time between the releases of Gnome 2 and 3. I don't think there is a lot of config churn. (It may have been worse in the early days of Gnome 3.)
  - dilandau 6y ago
    You literally have to install a special tool to configure the look and feel. Did you miss the whole thing about how gnome devs don't want user themes to be supported? Or how they are forcing csd and dropping menus and config left and right? I'm guessing you weren't a gnome 2 user because it's night and day.
    - catalogia 6y ago
      Trying to explain to a non-technical user that GNOME doesn't let them reconfigure something because the GNOME developers think they're an idiot who will be confused by configurability is a nightmare. I ended up telling my dad to install XFCE and he's not looked back since. The problem isn't that GNOME devs are trying to make user friendly software for non-technical users; that intent is commendable. The problem is the GNOME devs have incredibly insulting opinions about the skills and intelligence of non-technical users.
jlarocco 6y ago
> Sure, this might be true for the average user To be fair, that has always been Ubuntu's target market...

by billme 6y ago

BiteCode_dev 6y ago

There is an opt out feature: diversity. You can always use only the system package manager, or use a distro that doesn't use snap. All those complaints feel so moot. It's really hard to be in FOSS nowaday: you can't make a move without your users judging you all along the way, because a lot of them are idealists that expect a lot from you, yet don't think about the non tech saavy users. It's way easier to make proprietary software: most of your users don't criticise any single decision you make, you don't have to justify yourself, you get much more users, and you make money out of it.

yjftsjthsd-h 6y ago
> It's way easier to make proprietary software: most of your users don't criticise any single decision you make, you don't have to justify yourself, you get much more users, and you make money out of it. Why on Earth would you think that users of proprietary software don't criticize it? I'm pretty sure that Windows gets more criticism than Ubuntu...
- BiteCode_dev 6y ago
  Take zoom: in HN we heard a lot of complains for ethical reasons, but the biggest part of the user base doesn't care and are just happy with it. On FOSS, you'll have complains about the software it self AND ethics from most of your users, because they are mostly technical, and contains way more idealists than the average user sample.

bzb4 6y ago

Super users should be using Debian. Not being snarky.

pmontra 6y ago
I'm a super user but the last time I tried to use Debian as a desktop OS the experience was so disappointing that I reformatted to Ubuntu. I gave a shot to KDE and reformatted again to Gnome after a couple of weeks. That was 2014. I removed Debian as a possibility, KDE maybe someday. On a server Debian is OK.
- bzb4 6y ago
  What didn’t you like about Debian on the desktop? Old software?
  - pmontra 6y ago
    I don't remember exactly, it was 6 years ago. I remember the general feeling of having to do too much work to get a usable desktop. Maybe the settings? Keep in mind that I don't need anything fancy. I liked Gnome 2 and I stayed with Gnome Fallback until last year when there were enough Gnome Shell extensions to bend it to what I like a desktop to be. Maybe Debian is on par now. Old software can be worked around with containers and third party apt repositories. I often do that on Ubuntu too.
    - dleslie 6y ago
      Debian has improved greatly in the last six years. Try it with the xfce or mate flavours.
  - billme 6y ago
    I personally use any distro based on the situation. As others have pointed out, common reasoning behind picking a distro include: hardware requirements, existing ecosystems, end user, package management, configurableness, security, long-term support, ease of learning, driver support, core dev team’s opinions, funding, etc.

dilandau 6y ago

There are parallels with the Gnome team's stance that "we know what's best for you", and that turns off a lot of linux users. There is a tension between those who wish to turn linux into Mac OS or Windows, and those who want fine-grained control over the workings of their computer. The arrogance of the gnome team and the snap apologists is a huge red flag to me. I don't use Ubuntu or Gnome, and I'm glad linux provides me that choice.

gentleman11 6y ago
I find gnome to be pretty configurable. The opinionated defaults aren’t so bad because you can just replace the environment if you dislike it
- ludamad 6y ago
  The problem is configuration churn. A lot of gnome2 stuff didn't carry over if I recall and had to be reinvented for gnome3
  - cg505 6y ago
    Gnome 3 has been out for 9 years now, which is longer than the time between the releases of Gnome 2 and 3. I don't think there is a lot of config churn. (It may have been worse in the early days of Gnome 3.)
- dilandau 6y ago
  You literally have to install a special tool to configure the look and feel. Did you miss the whole thing about how gnome devs don't want user themes to be supported? Or how they are forcing csd and dropping menus and config left and right? I'm guessing you weren't a gnome 2 user because it's night and day.
  - catalogia 6y ago
    Trying to explain to a non-technical user that GNOME doesn't let them reconfigure something because the GNOME developers think they're an idiot who will be confused by configurability is a nightmare. I ended up telling my dad to install XFCE and he's not looked back since. The problem isn't that GNOME devs are trying to make user friendly software for non-technical users; that intent is commendable. The problem is the GNOME devs have incredibly insulting opinions about the skills and intelligence of non-technical users.

jlarocco 6y ago

> Sure, this might be true for the average user To be fair, that has always been Ubuntu's target market...