4 ms·

> Cingulata (pronounced "tchingulata") As an English speaker, this makes me more confused about the pronunciation, not less.

pmelendez 6y ago
As a non-native English speaker living in a English speaking country, I appreciate the phonetic guidance of a fairly uncommon word
- tzs 6y ago
  Did that really provide any phonetic guidance? All it appears to say is that it is just like "cingulata" except the "c" should be pronounced "tch". As you note "cingulata" is fairly uncommon. I have no idea how to pronounce that, and so their guidance still leaves me in the dark about everything but the first letter. For phonetic guidance something using the International Phonetic Alphabet seems like the way to go. I think that would give something like this: tʃiŋgyəˈlātə, -ätə That's just a guess taking the IPA for cingulata from Merrian-Webster (siŋgyəˈlātə, -ätə) and replacing the "s" with the "tʃ" that the Macmillan dictionary gives for the "tch" in "latch", which is the first word that came to mind that has a "tch". (Also, I believe many publications use their own variants on the IPA, so I'm not sure that what I gave is actually proper. If MW and/or Macmillian have their own, the above could be some weird bastardization with little meaning).
zimpenfish 6y ago
Same. You can't just steal words[1] and change the pronunciation! [1] https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Cingulata https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Cingulata
- asjw 6y ago
  Cingulata comes from the Latin words cingŭla or cingŭlum and it should be pronounced with the soft C (like in Tchaikovsky) > History and Etymology for Cingulata New Latin, from Latin cingulum, cingula girdle + New Latin -ata https://www.merriam-webster.com/dictionary/Cingulata#:~:text=History%20and%20Etymology%20for%20Cingulata,cingula%20girdle%20%2B%20New%20Latin%20-ata https://www.merriam-webster.com/dictionary/Cingulata#:~:text... It's a common mistake English speakers do all the times The rule is quite simple: a C followed by the vocals e and i is always pronounced tch in Latin. Latins used K for "hard C" like in "corn" and S for the s sound like in "cent"
  - ReactiveJelly 6y ago
    If Tchaikovsky is Russian and the translation of his name into written English is arbitrary and it's pronounced "Chaikovsky", what is the "T" for?
    - asjw 6y ago
      That's also very simple: it's the transliteration of the phonetic symbol 'tʃ which represents the soft C sound as in cheese. That's what happens when a language steals a foreign word (Latin in this case) and changes its pronunciation In Latin the way groups of letters are pronounced it's (almost) unambigous, it's a phonetic alphabet itself If you change the pronunciation, that part is lost and you have to rely on recollection instead of recognition It also means that if you don't already know a word you can't be sure on how it is pronounced
    - otabdeveloper4 6y ago
      The 't' is from French. That's how they code the sound in the French language.
    - asjw 6y ago
      P.s. Tchaikovsky in Russian is Чайко́вский and it is pronounced Cheekousky and not Chaikowsky The correct transliteration is Čajkovskij and the correct phonetic one is tɕɪˈkofskʲɪj
  - gpderetta 6y ago
    C followed by i and e is soft (as in english ch) in ecclesiatical latin and modern Italian, but my understanding is that romans actually pronounced C as hard C everywhere. I.e. Cicero called himself Kikero.
    - asjw 6y ago
      Correct, in ancient Rome C,K and Q had the same hard sound We are talking about classic Latin, born around the IV century b.c. But it changed a lot over the centuries influenced by the Greeks, to the point that the Byzantin Roman empire chose Medieval Greek as official language at the end of the VI century and even before, their Latin was different from the classic Roman one. I think they abandoned Latin as official language in the third century to use Koinè Greek (sorry don't know the name in English) basically a Greek dialect, the first common form of Greek, used among all Hellenistic cities which eventually became modern Greek, still in use nowadays. Most of the Latin found in science (like in the animal taxonomy) comes from "modern" ecclesiastic Latin which incorporated traits of vulgar and neighbors languages (French, German and Italian), it simplified the alphabet but reduced the symbols available so C was mad an affricate consonant. In practice we have dealt with modern Latin or some form of it for the past 15 centuries, longer than Rome existed.
- fabiospampinato 6y ago
  It's a slippery thing, how should the word "lead" be pronounced? Did I mean lead as in leader or lead the metal? In the English language words don't always have a unique pronunciation associated with them.
ssmiler 6y ago
Author here. We use the romanian language pronunciation for Cingulata. The first sound from Tchaikovsky is the right way as someone already mentioned in this thread.

pmelendez 6y ago

As a non-native English speaker living in a English speaking country, I appreciate the phonetic guidance of a fairly uncommon word

tzs 6y ago
Did that really provide any phonetic guidance? All it appears to say is that it is just like "cingulata" except the "c" should be pronounced "tch". As you note "cingulata" is fairly uncommon. I have no idea how to pronounce that, and so their guidance still leaves me in the dark about everything but the first letter. For phonetic guidance something using the International Phonetic Alphabet seems like the way to go. I think that would give something like this: tʃiŋgyəˈlātə, -ätə That's just a guess taking the IPA for cingulata from Merrian-Webster (siŋgyəˈlātə, -ätə) and replacing the "s" with the "tʃ" that the Macmillan dictionary gives for the "tch" in "latch", which is the first word that came to mind that has a "tch". (Also, I believe many publications use their own variants on the IPA, so I'm not sure that what I gave is actually proper. If MW and/or Macmillian have their own, the above could be some weird bastardization with little meaning).

zimpenfish 6y ago

Same. You can't just steal words[1] and change the pronunciation! [1] https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Cingulata https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Cingulata

asjw 6y ago
Cingulata comes from the Latin words cingŭla or cingŭlum and it should be pronounced with the soft C (like in Tchaikovsky) > History and Etymology for Cingulata New Latin, from Latin cingulum, cingula girdle + New Latin -ata https://www.merriam-webster.com/dictionary/Cingulata#:~:text=History%20and%20Etymology%20for%20Cingulata,cingula%20girdle%20%2B%20New%20Latin%20-ata https://www.merriam-webster.com/dictionary/Cingulata#:~:text... It's a common mistake English speakers do all the times The rule is quite simple: a C followed by the vocals e and i is always pronounced tch in Latin. Latins used K for "hard C" like in "corn" and S for the s sound like in "cent"
- ReactiveJelly 6y ago
  If Tchaikovsky is Russian and the translation of his name into written English is arbitrary and it's pronounced "Chaikovsky", what is the "T" for?
  - asjw 6y ago
    That's also very simple: it's the transliteration of the phonetic symbol 'tʃ which represents the soft C sound as in cheese. That's what happens when a language steals a foreign word (Latin in this case) and changes its pronunciation In Latin the way groups of letters are pronounced it's (almost) unambigous, it's a phonetic alphabet itself If you change the pronunciation, that part is lost and you have to rely on recollection instead of recognition It also means that if you don't already know a word you can't be sure on how it is pronounced
  - otabdeveloper4 6y ago
    The 't' is from French. That's how they code the sound in the French language.
  - asjw 6y ago
    P.s. Tchaikovsky in Russian is Чайко́вский and it is pronounced Cheekousky and not Chaikowsky The correct transliteration is Čajkovskij and the correct phonetic one is tɕɪˈkofskʲɪj
- gpderetta 6y ago
  C followed by i and e is soft (as in english ch) in ecclesiatical latin and modern Italian, but my understanding is that romans actually pronounced C as hard C everywhere. I.e. Cicero called himself Kikero.
  - asjw 6y ago
    Correct, in ancient Rome C,K and Q had the same hard sound We are talking about classic Latin, born around the IV century b.c. But it changed a lot over the centuries influenced by the Greeks, to the point that the Byzantin Roman empire chose Medieval Greek as official language at the end of the VI century and even before, their Latin was different from the classic Roman one. I think they abandoned Latin as official language in the third century to use Koinè Greek (sorry don't know the name in English) basically a Greek dialect, the first common form of Greek, used among all Hellenistic cities which eventually became modern Greek, still in use nowadays. Most of the Latin found in science (like in the animal taxonomy) comes from "modern" ecclesiastic Latin which incorporated traits of vulgar and neighbors languages (French, German and Italian), it simplified the alphabet but reduced the symbols available so C was mad an affricate consonant. In practice we have dealt with modern Latin or some form of it for the past 15 centuries, longer than Rome existed.
fabiospampinato 6y ago
It's a slippery thing, how should the word "lead" be pronounced? Did I mean lead as in leader or lead the metal? In the English language words don't always have a unique pronunciation associated with them.

ssmiler 6y ago

Author here. We use the romanian language pronunciation for Cingulata. The first sound from Tchaikovsky is the right way as someone already mentioned in this thread.