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> you ain't going to fix the world, and wait for the new world order I think this sort of Hegelian outlook is counterproductive. Human society is not external

> you ain't going to fix the world, and wait for the new world order I think this sort of Hegelian outlook is counterproductive. Human society is not external to us; we can change its course if we want to. As a matter of fact there are people who do this all the time - they're the ones who hold power and try to sway the course of events in a way that is favorable to their interests. Whatever the new world order will be, it will be dictated by people's will (not necessarily the will of 'regular' people, mind you), not by the blind immutable forces of history.

roenxi 6y ago
Modern western society - and maybe others, I really only know the west - has built what must be one of the most powerful abstracting bubbles ever for separating people from the real world. For a wealthy westerner - if you don't want to know how your food is grown - you don't have to know. If you don't want to know how your shirt is made - you don't need to know. Don't want to know about the political systems that are keeping the world ticking over? Don't need to know. Anyone who is in a position earning more than ~$60k/annum can be totally isolated from the real if they want to be and all their problems start becoming social ones, except disease and the grim spectre of eventual death. Even then we're starting to abstract away disease as well - look at how the wheels fell off politically when disease popped through the walls of the bubble on a mass scale. Been a long time since that sort of threat has been meaningful (maybe AIDS in the 80s?). Good luck, in both sarcasm but also all sincerity, convincing people in that robust of a bubble that there are real problems that need to be fixed. People have no north star to fix a direction. They won't be able to organise anything in reality; they'll get caught up on social problems.
- leto_ii 6y ago
  > Good luck, in both sarcasm but also all sincerity, convincing people in that robust of a bubble that there are real problems that need to be fixed. People have no north star to fix a direction. They won't be able to organise anything in reality; they'll get caught up on social problems. It may turn out to be true that 'regular' people won't be able to organize and change society in a meaningful way. That still doesn't mean it's in principle impossible to do so. Setting aside the problems internal to society, we do have the twin specters of global warming and nuclear holocaust looming over everything. They probably don't much care how comfortable we are in our middle class western bubble. I'm quite afraid that if we don't act there will be a collapse in the next 30 - 50 yrs.
  - deleted 6y ago
    [deleted]

roenxi 6y ago

Modern western society - and maybe others, I really only know the west - has built what must be one of the most powerful abstracting bubbles ever for separating people from the real world. For a wealthy westerner - if you don't want to know how your food is grown - you don't have to know. If you don't want to know how your shirt is made - you don't need to know. Don't want to know about the political systems that are keeping the world ticking over? Don't need to know. Anyone who is in a position earning more than ~$60k/annum can be totally isolated from the real if they want to be and all their problems start becoming social ones, except disease and the grim spectre of eventual death. Even then we're starting to abstract away disease as well - look at how the wheels fell off politically when disease popped through the walls of the bubble on a mass scale. Been a long time since that sort of threat has been meaningful (maybe AIDS in the 80s?). Good luck, in both sarcasm but also all sincerity, convincing people in that robust of a bubble that there are real problems that need to be fixed. People have no north star to fix a direction. They won't be able to organise anything in reality; they'll get caught up on social problems.

leto_ii 6y ago
> Good luck, in both sarcasm but also all sincerity, convincing people in that robust of a bubble that there are real problems that need to be fixed. People have no north star to fix a direction. They won't be able to organise anything in reality; they'll get caught up on social problems. It may turn out to be true that 'regular' people won't be able to organize and change society in a meaningful way. That still doesn't mean it's in principle impossible to do so. Setting aside the problems internal to society, we do have the twin specters of global warming and nuclear holocaust looming over everything. They probably don't much care how comfortable we are in our middle class western bubble. I'm quite afraid that if we don't act there will be a collapse in the next 30 - 50 yrs.
- deleted 6y ago
  [deleted]