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Just a word.. not that it is really relevant but I wanted to share this with fellow hackers. To encourage the Clojure community/language, I've pre-ordered the b

by d0m 16y ago

Just a word.. not that it is really relevant but I wanted to share this with fellow hackers. To encourage the Clojure community/language, I've pre-ordered the book Joy of Clojure on amazon. On the book's website, it is clearly stated that you also get a free pdf of the book before the release date. So, I was pretty enthusiastic about starting to read the book. But then, I find out that you only get the pdf if you ordered from manning.. So, I email manning saying that had I know about the "order at manning instead of amazon", I really would have bought it there and that I'd be more then happy to blog about "Joy of Clojure" and give a link to manning's order web page. So, then, I receive an email saying (summarized in my word): "Fu, it's your problem, next time buy it at manning, not amazon". It really frustrated me.. I mean, isn't it the best way to demolish someone's best intention? I just feel like never ever buying anything from manning; never ever linking anything to their website, and spread the word about that story. Am I over-reacting? What's your thought on that, fellow HN-users?

JoachimSchipper 16y ago
You gave a significant chunk of their profit to Amazon; it would be nice if they still gave you the PDF (which is the bonus for ordering directly from them), but not doing so is just "not nice", not rage-worthy. If you really wanted it, you could have cancelled your Amazon order and placed your order with manning...
- d0m 16y ago
  The thing is, on joyofclojure.com, it says: "[...]The Joy of Clojure can now be pre-ordered, which gives you access to the entire book as a PDF now, plus other formats including the printed book once they're available." Which is misleading because you only get the pdf if it get pre-ordered FROM MANNING. And, yes, you are right that I give a part of their profit to amazon, but I still give them money. Maybe you are right that it is just "not nice" and not rage-worthy. Still, I don't like the idea of a company being "not nice" to someone giving them money.
  - gojomo 16y ago
    Yes, that should be worded clearer. But, there's still a way for you to get the advance PDF and Manning to get what they expected in return: you can still cancel your Amazon order and order from Manning instead. Problem solved. If you don't want to do that, then you're over-reacting.
  - dmoney 16y ago
    It doesn't say anything about the PDF on the Amazon page, not that that's an excuse for Manning to be rude. Was it really an "FU" or just a polite "no"? It looks like the page has been amended to say "The Joy of Clojure can now be pre-ordered from Manning".
- charlieconroy 16y ago
  "You gave a significant chunk of their profit to Amazon" Are you implying this gives Manning reason for the disdain they showed him? From the rough translation it seems disdainful. He/she is a customer regardless of whatever vehicle (Amazon) he/she uses. Personally, they should work with you to remedy this situation through various steps. The first should be try to cancel your amazon order and place it through Manning. If that doesn't work, then ... You have every right to be angry at your bad customer service experience.
- deleted 16y ago
  [deleted]
- jarin 16y ago
  It's definitely high up on the "not nice" scale, because sending him the PDF would cost them a grand total of zero dollars and zero cents. Not sending him the PDF has probably cost them at least one book sale.
  - andymism 16y ago
    It's not about the PDF copy having zero marginal cost. Manning is a business that is trying to offer an incentive for customers to buy direct from them. Are you suggesting that they destroy their own value add? Also, I seriously doubt that Manning responded to d0m's request by literally saying: "Fu, it's your problem, next time buy it at manning, not amazon" Pronounced "F-U" and not "foo". The moment you twist someone's wording to sound that aggressive, you're overreacting.
    - jarin 16y ago
      I don't know if I would consider emailing a PDF to a customer who made an honest mistake "destroying your value add". I've given some paid members on setformarriage.com free lifetime accounts because they were consistently forwarding us emails from the spam profiles that made it through our filters. I think the value of overall goodwill to the customers is probably worth it.
d0m 16y ago
And a funny fact: For both of my comments, the score keep oscillating from +5 to -4. Which doesn't talk a lot because, if it continues like that, at the end, I will probably only have ~1 which won't give any clues about the opinion on HN-users. (i.e. people don't care about it vs half agree / half disagree!)
- ashr 16y ago
  I am guessing that this is because you are off-topic, writing about the publisher which doesn't seem to be the topic of the OP.
- ramchip 16y ago
  Upvote/downvote isn't meant to be agree/disagree, but rather something like insightful/irrelevant.
gtani 16y ago
If you get on Manning's email list, you'll get a steady stream of discount codes and never have to spend full price.
- mseebach 16y ago
  There's a 35% off code on the website (which is very broken in Firefox).. does it get better than that? EDIT: Hmm, it only applies to the e-book only version.
  - calibraxis 16y ago
    Yes. On a typical day there's a new 50% discount on ebook and ebook+print, of up to 3 different but related titles. On Christmas, there was 50% on all purchases. Then a couple days later was $15 off on all. As with many commodities, you can simply pass until the price is sufficiently low. Unless you really want the thing immediately.
revorad 16y ago
Sounds like Manning just lost the opportunity to win a customer for life. In fact, they chose to lose him for life. Go Amazon!
neonscribe 16y ago
The book hasn't been released yet. You can cancel your Amazon order without penalty until it enters the shipping process.
zosi 16y ago
Yes, you're over-reacting. Your post sounds spiteful, and your threat of bad publicity sounds more like revenge than warning your fellow consumers. The way I see it, it would've been nice of them to give you a free MEAP copy, but it was well within their rights to refuse. Similarly, it's well within your rights to write a nasty blog post about how Manning is a bunch of meanies, but it'd be nice if you let it go, admitted that you made a mistake and got on with your life. It doesn't seem to me like there's anything to be gained by taking the low road here, even if you feel that it would be fair. I have a story that starts similarly to yours, but ends very differently. I discovered "The Joy of Clojure" from a post here on HN, and after some consideration, I decided to pre-order. I was familiar with Amazon, but not with Manning, so I checked them out a little. I read their page about MEAPs and preview releases and really liked what I saw, so I pre-ordered the e-book copy from them directly, got my MEAP copy immediately and started reading. Since then, I've purchased/pre-ordered a half dozen other titles from them (frequently on steep discount thanks to their daily deals and newsletter sales) and they've become my go-to publisher for tech e-books when O'Reilly doesn't have what I'm looking for. I can't help but feel that my life would be ever-so-slightly poorer if I had had a bad experience with them right off the bat and decided to avoid them in the future. Regardless of which path you decide to take, I hope that you enjoy reading the book. As someone who's fairly new to Clojure and functional programming, I've found it to be a great way to get deeper into the language as well as expand my horizons by exploring concepts like laziness and immutability that I don't see often enough as a Python programmer. Happy reading!
- deleted 16y ago
  [deleted]
- d0m 16y ago
  Even with what happened to me, I can't help but be happy for you if it makes your live slightly-better ;) I don't totally agree with the "nice from them to give it, nice from me to not post". I don't want to start philosophical debate about what is "right" or not, but in my sense, being "nice" is the right thing. As someone who truly try to be nice to everyone, it pisses me off when some people aren't like that with me and, in these situations, I feel like it's right for me to point them out. And, in all honestly, it's not really that much about money or about the book, but more about the way it happened. I first sent an email basically saying "Sorry, I made a mistake. I really want to read that book and didn't know about the manning vs amazon ordered thing. I'd be happy to blog about you being awesome if you can give me the pdf :D" And, then, for them to reply: "Sorry, but that is the advantage of buying from manning only. If you need further assistance, blabha". So, no explication, whatsoever, about a way to fix the solution. No: "Yeah, I understand it sucks. You know what you could do? Just cancel your order from amazon and order it at manning and I'd be pleased to send you the .pdf as soon as possible!". I then sent them out an email saying that I was really unhappy about the situation and that they had lost me as a customer. They then replied saying: "We can't give you the pdf because we have no way to make sure you really bought the book. Even if you give us the amazon copy, you could order, give us the message from amazon, cancel and get a free pdf". Well, you know what, I could get the free pdf illegaly without even contacting amazon or manning or anyone! It'd be way more simpler for me to download it in 30secs instead of ordering, sending proof, canceling. no? So, finally, you say it would have been nice for me to not post about that story. Why would it have been nice? If someone is harsh with you, is "Saying nothing and letting him/her being an ass with you" nice? Nice for who? Why would I be nice to them? So, yeah, when I'll read the book, I'm sure it will be a good read and I'll be happy to blog about it. (still linking to amazon, of course ;)
dpritchett 16y ago
The March 14 google cache of JoyofClojure.com says "can be preordered [link to the Manning preorder page with explanation of MEAP], which gives you access to the entire book as a PDF now". The current page has been amended to say "can now be pre-ordered from Manning [link to the same MEAP purchase page], which gives you access to the entire book as a PDF now". It looks like you helped them solve the "user reads about the preorder bonus and then chooses not to click on the nearby purchase link; instead bounces to Amazon, buys the book for half price, and then comes back asking for the PDF later" edge case. They could certainly have just given you a copy of the PDF though. Probably not worth the hassle for Manning to argue the point.
Goladus 16y ago
I'd have to see their actual email before I decide whether you are over-reacting. If they actually wrote "Fu, it's your problem, etc." then no you aren't over-reacting at all. I very much doubt that I would summarize their email the same way, however.
kenjackson 16y ago
Honestly, I don't think you're over-reacting. Book publishers don't touch customers very often and their behavior here was pretty poor. Not sure if this is the only good Clojure book around, but if not, I'd consider just cancelling and buying a different one. If it is the only good Clojure book, then I guess you're just kind of stuck. I would probably just stick with the Amazon purchase then because it would feel like every additional dollar to Manning, I would't feel comfortable with. And you probably could get someone to donate their PDF to you.
biafra 16y ago
Amazon just told me my pre-order was cancelled because the book was discontinued by the publisher. There must be some kind of misunderstanding? I am in Germany, so ordering from Amazon seemed to be the fastest and cheapest way to get the book. But now I'm considering ordering from Manning.
Tichy 16y ago
Had the same happening with Pragmatic Programmers. I must admit that I would not think too badly about somebody who decided to torrent a PDF of a hardcover book he owns. Thinking about it, maybe publishers could give out PDFs if there was a good way to prove ownership of the paper edition? If you ordered through Manning, they know you bought it, if you order through Amazon, they don't.
steven5122 16y ago
...but you saved a lot by ordering it on amazon: 45 (manning)-26(amazon)=$19 savings. Is the pdf worth $19?
- rbxbx 16y ago
  Considering that it's $34.99 when purchased alone, just maybe?

by d0m 16y ago

JoachimSchipper 16y ago

You gave a significant chunk of their profit to Amazon; it would be nice if they still gave you the PDF (which is the bonus for ordering directly from them), but not doing so is just "not nice", not rage-worthy. If you really wanted it, you could have cancelled your Amazon order and placed your order with manning...

d0m 16y ago
The thing is, on joyofclojure.com, it says: "[...]The Joy of Clojure can now be pre-ordered, which gives you access to the entire book as a PDF now, plus other formats including the printed book once they're available." Which is misleading because you only get the pdf if it get pre-ordered FROM MANNING. And, yes, you are right that I give a part of their profit to amazon, but I still give them money. Maybe you are right that it is just "not nice" and not rage-worthy. Still, I don't like the idea of a company being "not nice" to someone giving them money.
- gojomo 16y ago
  Yes, that should be worded clearer. But, there's still a way for you to get the advance PDF and Manning to get what they expected in return: you can still cancel your Amazon order and order from Manning instead. Problem solved. If you don't want to do that, then you're over-reacting.
- dmoney 16y ago
  It doesn't say anything about the PDF on the Amazon page, not that that's an excuse for Manning to be rude. Was it really an "FU" or just a polite "no"? It looks like the page has been amended to say "The Joy of Clojure can now be pre-ordered from Manning".
charlieconroy 16y ago
"You gave a significant chunk of their profit to Amazon" Are you implying this gives Manning reason for the disdain they showed him? From the rough translation it seems disdainful. He/she is a customer regardless of whatever vehicle (Amazon) he/she uses. Personally, they should work with you to remedy this situation through various steps. The first should be try to cancel your amazon order and place it through Manning. If that doesn't work, then ... You have every right to be angry at your bad customer service experience.
deleted 16y ago
[deleted]
jarin 16y ago
It's definitely high up on the "not nice" scale, because sending him the PDF would cost them a grand total of zero dollars and zero cents. Not sending him the PDF has probably cost them at least one book sale.
- andymism 16y ago
  It's not about the PDF copy having zero marginal cost. Manning is a business that is trying to offer an incentive for customers to buy direct from them. Are you suggesting that they destroy their own value add? Also, I seriously doubt that Manning responded to d0m's request by literally saying: "Fu, it's your problem, next time buy it at manning, not amazon" Pronounced "F-U" and not "foo". The moment you twist someone's wording to sound that aggressive, you're overreacting.
  - jarin 16y ago
    I don't know if I would consider emailing a PDF to a customer who made an honest mistake "destroying your value add". I've given some paid members on setformarriage.com free lifetime accounts because they were consistently forwarding us emails from the spam profiles that made it through our filters. I think the value of overall goodwill to the customers is probably worth it.

d0m 16y ago

And a funny fact: For both of my comments, the score keep oscillating from +5 to -4. Which doesn't talk a lot because, if it continues like that, at the end, I will probably only have ~1 which won't give any clues about the opinion on HN-users. (i.e. people don't care about it vs half agree / half disagree!)

ashr 16y ago
I am guessing that this is because you are off-topic, writing about the publisher which doesn't seem to be the topic of the OP.
ramchip 16y ago
Upvote/downvote isn't meant to be agree/disagree, but rather something like insightful/irrelevant.

gtani 16y ago

If you get on Manning's email list, you'll get a steady stream of discount codes and never have to spend full price.

mseebach 16y ago
There's a 35% off code on the website (which is very broken in Firefox).. does it get better than that? EDIT: Hmm, it only applies to the e-book only version.
- calibraxis 16y ago
  Yes. On a typical day there's a new 50% discount on ebook and ebook+print, of up to 3 different but related titles. On Christmas, there was 50% on all purchases. Then a couple days later was $15 off on all. As with many commodities, you can simply pass until the price is sufficiently low. Unless you really want the thing immediately.

revorad 16y ago

Sounds like Manning just lost the opportunity to win a customer for life. In fact, they chose to lose him for life. Go Amazon!

neonscribe 16y ago

The book hasn't been released yet. You can cancel your Amazon order without penalty until it enters the shipping process.

zosi 16y ago

Yes, you're over-reacting. Your post sounds spiteful, and your threat of bad publicity sounds more like revenge than warning your fellow consumers. The way I see it, it would've been nice of them to give you a free MEAP copy, but it was well within their rights to refuse. Similarly, it's well within your rights to write a nasty blog post about how Manning is a bunch of meanies, but it'd be nice if you let it go, admitted that you made a mistake and got on with your life. It doesn't seem to me like there's anything to be gained by taking the low road here, even if you feel that it would be fair. I have a story that starts similarly to yours, but ends very differently. I discovered "The Joy of Clojure" from a post here on HN, and after some consideration, I decided to pre-order. I was familiar with Amazon, but not with Manning, so I checked them out a little. I read their page about MEAPs and preview releases and really liked what I saw, so I pre-ordered the e-book copy from them directly, got my MEAP copy immediately and started reading. Since then, I've purchased/pre-ordered a half dozen other titles from them (frequently on steep discount thanks to their daily deals and newsletter sales) and they've become my go-to publisher for tech e-books when O'Reilly doesn't have what I'm looking for. I can't help but feel that my life would be ever-so-slightly poorer if I had had a bad experience with them right off the bat and decided to avoid them in the future. Regardless of which path you decide to take, I hope that you enjoy reading the book. As someone who's fairly new to Clojure and functional programming, I've found it to be a great way to get deeper into the language as well as expand my horizons by exploring concepts like laziness and immutability that I don't see often enough as a Python programmer. Happy reading!

deleted 16y ago
[deleted]
d0m 16y ago
Even with what happened to me, I can't help but be happy for you if it makes your live slightly-better ;) I don't totally agree with the "nice from them to give it, nice from me to not post". I don't want to start philosophical debate about what is "right" or not, but in my sense, being "nice" is the right thing. As someone who truly try to be nice to everyone, it pisses me off when some people aren't like that with me and, in these situations, I feel like it's right for me to point them out. And, in all honestly, it's not really that much about money or about the book, but more about the way it happened. I first sent an email basically saying "Sorry, I made a mistake. I really want to read that book and didn't know about the manning vs amazon ordered thing. I'd be happy to blog about you being awesome if you can give me the pdf :D" And, then, for them to reply: "Sorry, but that is the advantage of buying from manning only. If you need further assistance, blabha". So, no explication, whatsoever, about a way to fix the solution. No: "Yeah, I understand it sucks. You know what you could do? Just cancel your order from amazon and order it at manning and I'd be pleased to send you the .pdf as soon as possible!". I then sent them out an email saying that I was really unhappy about the situation and that they had lost me as a customer. They then replied saying: "We can't give you the pdf because we have no way to make sure you really bought the book. Even if you give us the amazon copy, you could order, give us the message from amazon, cancel and get a free pdf". Well, you know what, I could get the free pdf illegaly without even contacting amazon or manning or anyone! It'd be way more simpler for me to download it in 30secs instead of ordering, sending proof, canceling. no? So, finally, you say it would have been nice for me to not post about that story. Why would it have been nice? If someone is harsh with you, is "Saying nothing and letting him/her being an ass with you" nice? Nice for who? Why would I be nice to them? So, yeah, when I'll read the book, I'm sure it will be a good read and I'll be happy to blog about it. (still linking to amazon, of course ;)

dpritchett 16y ago

The March 14 google cache of JoyofClojure.com says "can be preordered [link to the Manning preorder page with explanation of MEAP], which gives you access to the entire book as a PDF now". The current page has been amended to say "can now be pre-ordered from Manning [link to the same MEAP purchase page], which gives you access to the entire book as a PDF now". It looks like you helped them solve the "user reads about the preorder bonus and then chooses not to click on the nearby purchase link; instead bounces to Amazon, buys the book for half price, and then comes back asking for the PDF later" edge case. They could certainly have just given you a copy of the PDF though. Probably not worth the hassle for Manning to argue the point.

Goladus 16y ago

I'd have to see their actual email before I decide whether you are over-reacting. If they actually wrote "Fu, it's your problem, etc." then no you aren't over-reacting at all. I very much doubt that I would summarize their email the same way, however.

kenjackson 16y ago

Honestly, I don't think you're over-reacting. Book publishers don't touch customers very often and their behavior here was pretty poor. Not sure if this is the only good Clojure book around, but if not, I'd consider just cancelling and buying a different one. If it is the only good Clojure book, then I guess you're just kind of stuck. I would probably just stick with the Amazon purchase then because it would feel like every additional dollar to Manning, I would't feel comfortable with. And you probably could get someone to donate their PDF to you.

biafra 16y ago

Amazon just told me my pre-order was cancelled because the book was discontinued by the publisher. There must be some kind of misunderstanding? I am in Germany, so ordering from Amazon seemed to be the fastest and cheapest way to get the book. But now I'm considering ordering from Manning.

Tichy 16y ago

Had the same happening with Pragmatic Programmers. I must admit that I would not think too badly about somebody who decided to torrent a PDF of a hardcover book he owns. Thinking about it, maybe publishers could give out PDFs if there was a good way to prove ownership of the paper edition? If you ordered through Manning, they know you bought it, if you order through Amazon, they don't.

steven5122 16y ago

...but you saved a lot by ordering it on amazon: 45 (manning)-26(amazon)=$19 savings. Is the pdf worth $19?

rbxbx 16y ago
Considering that it's $34.99 when purchased alone, just maybe?