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This is like asking if there's no consensus on whether "all lives matter". Or no consensus on being "pro-life". Phrases often have context that mean more than t

This is like asking if there's no consensus on whether "all lives matter". Or no consensus on being "pro-life". Phrases often have context that mean more than their literal dictionary definition. Edit: The comment I replied to originally asked "There is no consensus on wether being against fascism is good or bad?"

anamexis 6y ago
Well, there isn't. "All lives matter" and "pro-life" represent specific political views, but they don't represent any specific groups or organizations. Just like antifa.
- grandmczeb 6y ago
  I don't understand the point you're making, sorry. I agree with you that antifa is not a specific organization.
  - anamexis 6y ago
    Well, then what is it besides a term for antifascism? And how was the "is there not a consensus on antifascism" question invalid?
    - jefftk 6y ago
      You could similarly say, Well, what is there to "all lives matter" except the simple claim that all lives, do in fact matter? Which is wrong: people who say "all lives matter" as a rule have some amount of shared views, such as not thinking police abusing their power is a major issue and opposing the current protests. Similarly, people identify as "antifa" tend to have shared views, for example being anti-capitalist, left-wing, and having a higher affinity for violent protest than protesters at large.
    - grandmczeb 6y ago
      Antifa is a term people associate with far-left pseudo anarchist groups that engage in property damage, physical violence and harassment. Wikipedia has more context if you're interested[1]. > And how was the "is there not a consensus on antifascism" question invalid? It's not an invalid question, just a leading one. [1] https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Antifa_(United_States) https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Antifa_(United_States)
      - anamexis 6y ago
        I understand what you're saying and I agree to some extent. And I'm coming at this with someone who's been adjacent with the left for a long time. But even reading the Wikipedia article, it describes such a broad range of ideologies and tactics that I think the only thing really unifying the term is literally being anti-fascist. This has been my personal experience as well - I know a lot of people who identify as antifa, but they vary wildly in how that manifests.
        grandmczeb 6y ago
        It's fair to argue that what people associate with "antifa" does not accurately describe all the groups or people who use it to describe themselves. But that doesn't really change the connotation of the term.
- r7373hd 6y ago
  You're being obtuse for no reason. This is like saying ISIS isn't an a specific group because it is comprised of transregional autonomous cells instead of any specific group. Sure, maybe in the most literal application of terms, but it's obvious what's being discussed from context clues. Decentralized movements are the status quo of activism these days, that doesn't mean you can't reference the movement as a collection when discussing how to combat it or or if it should be combatted.
  - anamexis 6y ago
    I'm arguing that antifa isn't even a decentralized movement. Wildly different parts of the left, both in ideology and preferred tactics, ascribe to the antifa label. I think a better analogy than ISIS would be "groups that say they uphold the ideals of Islam."
  - troughway 6y ago
    Thanks for this, but it’s not worth it to get into a spat on HN over this to be honest. It’s clear from the downvote brigading that this isn’t a thread for discussion.
67512376512735 6y ago
I can think of one group of people who are not against fascism, so yes, there is no “consensus” on whether fascism is good or bad I guess

anamexis 6y ago

Well, there isn't. "All lives matter" and "pro-life" represent specific political views, but they don't represent any specific groups or organizations. Just like antifa.

grandmczeb 6y ago
I don't understand the point you're making, sorry. I agree with you that antifa is not a specific organization.
- anamexis 6y ago
  Well, then what is it besides a term for antifascism? And how was the "is there not a consensus on antifascism" question invalid?
  - jefftk 6y ago
    You could similarly say, Well, what is there to "all lives matter" except the simple claim that all lives, do in fact matter? Which is wrong: people who say "all lives matter" as a rule have some amount of shared views, such as not thinking police abusing their power is a major issue and opposing the current protests. Similarly, people identify as "antifa" tend to have shared views, for example being anti-capitalist, left-wing, and having a higher affinity for violent protest than protesters at large.
  - grandmczeb 6y ago
    Antifa is a term people associate with far-left pseudo anarchist groups that engage in property damage, physical violence and harassment. Wikipedia has more context if you're interested[1]. > And how was the "is there not a consensus on antifascism" question invalid? It's not an invalid question, just a leading one. [1] https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Antifa_(United_States) https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Antifa_(United_States)
    - anamexis 6y ago
      I understand what you're saying and I agree to some extent. And I'm coming at this with someone who's been adjacent with the left for a long time. But even reading the Wikipedia article, it describes such a broad range of ideologies and tactics that I think the only thing really unifying the term is literally being anti-fascist. This has been my personal experience as well - I know a lot of people who identify as antifa, but they vary wildly in how that manifests.
      - grandmczeb 6y ago
        It's fair to argue that what people associate with "antifa" does not accurately describe all the groups or people who use it to describe themselves. But that doesn't really change the connotation of the term.
r7373hd 6y ago
You're being obtuse for no reason. This is like saying ISIS isn't an a specific group because it is comprised of transregional autonomous cells instead of any specific group. Sure, maybe in the most literal application of terms, but it's obvious what's being discussed from context clues. Decentralized movements are the status quo of activism these days, that doesn't mean you can't reference the movement as a collection when discussing how to combat it or or if it should be combatted.
- anamexis 6y ago
  I'm arguing that antifa isn't even a decentralized movement. Wildly different parts of the left, both in ideology and preferred tactics, ascribe to the antifa label. I think a better analogy than ISIS would be "groups that say they uphold the ideals of Islam."
- troughway 6y ago
  Thanks for this, but it’s not worth it to get into a spat on HN over this to be honest. It’s clear from the downvote brigading that this isn’t a thread for discussion.

67512376512735 6y ago

I can think of one group of people who are not against fascism, so yes, there is no “consensus” on whether fascism is good or bad I guess