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Both of these rhetorical claims are misinformation. Please don't do this. Telegram messages are encrypted at rest on Telegram's servers with the keys held by T

Both of these rhetorical claims are misinformation. Please don't do this. Telegram messages are encrypted at rest on Telegram's servers with the keys held by Telegram the company. [1] MTProto is fully open-source. [2] Here's a FAQ of Telegram's most frequent criticisms. [3] [1] https://telegram.org/faq#q-do-you-process-data-requests https://telegram.org/faq#q-do-you-process-data-requests [2] https://core.telegram.org/mtproto https://core.telegram.org/mtproto [3] https://telegra.ph/How-really-secure-and-private-is-Telegram-09-02 https://telegra.ph/How-really-secure-and-private-is-Telegram...

Legogris 6y ago
The "encrypted at rest" claim is completely meaningless since there's no way of verifying it. If their web client can read your messages by you reverifying your phone number, so can anyone else with access to their servers.
- emptysongglass 6y ago
  But that's not true. We can verify a Cloud Chat message is wrapped in a key generated on a user's device. You can look at the client code and prove this. We can also prove that client-server messages must be decrypted on their way back to a user's device. [1] [1] https://core.telegram.org/mtproto#authorization-and-encryption https://core.telegram.org/mtproto#authorization-and-encrypti...
brnt 6y ago
I wish it was different, but it isn't. Mtproto v2 seems OK, but it is not default, so hardly used. Server side encryption protects against very little. I like Telegram, but not for security. Nobody should.
- emptysongglass 6y ago
  You wish what was different? My rebuttal specifically corrected false claims, without opinion.
  - brnt 6y ago
    The way you use encryption matters as much as the quality of the crypto used. In Telegrams case, usage is all wrong and not even better than e.g. WhatsApp. Opt-in E2EE is worse than having it be default, and server side encryption with server side keys is bordering on the pointless.
    - emptysongglass 6y ago
      Thank you for reflecting with an opinion. I also believe that opt-in E2EE is worse than having it by default. We have precedent for E2EE chats by default and syncing those E2EE messages across devices using the latest RiotX for Matrix. I'd love to see Telegram adopt that strategy. I use Telegram because it delights its users. When I have tried to bring friends and family to first Riot, then Signal, the experience I encountered was one of frustration, whether it was messages unexpectedly not syncing or delivering, the pain of cross-signing new devices for E2EE (RiotX), or the paucity of features. I have tried nearly every messenger that exists in an effort to seek out a usable compromise for laypeople and Telegram has been the only one to make that bar. We use Matrix in my workplace because I can count on the employees being technical and patient enough to forgive having to input a multitude of varying passwords in succession just to get their session going.
      - brnt 6y ago
        Don't get me wrong, Telegram is a very nice app, and I especially like the wide platform support. It's great at what it does, and that's many things, but unfortunately not secure-by-default communication.
      - Arathorn 6y ago
        On the Matrix side we’re removing the recovery passphrase shortly; it was a misstep.
        emptysongglass 6y ago
        Thank you for your work! I run my own federated homeserver that I really enjoy digging in with on the weekends. Between selfhosting email and Synapse I really feel a sense of reverent ownership over these methods of communication.

Legogris 6y ago

The "encrypted at rest" claim is completely meaningless since there's no way of verifying it. If their web client can read your messages by you reverifying your phone number, so can anyone else with access to their servers.

emptysongglass 6y ago
But that's not true. We can verify a Cloud Chat message is wrapped in a key generated on a user's device. You can look at the client code and prove this. We can also prove that client-server messages must be decrypted on their way back to a user's device. [1] [1] https://core.telegram.org/mtproto#authorization-and-encryption https://core.telegram.org/mtproto#authorization-and-encrypti...

brnt 6y ago

I wish it was different, but it isn't. Mtproto v2 seems OK, but it is not default, so hardly used. Server side encryption protects against very little. I like Telegram, but not for security. Nobody should.

emptysongglass 6y ago
You wish what was different? My rebuttal specifically corrected false claims, without opinion.
- brnt 6y ago
  The way you use encryption matters as much as the quality of the crypto used. In Telegrams case, usage is all wrong and not even better than e.g. WhatsApp. Opt-in E2EE is worse than having it be default, and server side encryption with server side keys is bordering on the pointless.
  - emptysongglass 6y ago
    Thank you for reflecting with an opinion. I also believe that opt-in E2EE is worse than having it by default. We have precedent for E2EE chats by default and syncing those E2EE messages across devices using the latest RiotX for Matrix. I'd love to see Telegram adopt that strategy. I use Telegram because it delights its users. When I have tried to bring friends and family to first Riot, then Signal, the experience I encountered was one of frustration, whether it was messages unexpectedly not syncing or delivering, the pain of cross-signing new devices for E2EE (RiotX), or the paucity of features. I have tried nearly every messenger that exists in an effort to seek out a usable compromise for laypeople and Telegram has been the only one to make that bar. We use Matrix in my workplace because I can count on the employees being technical and patient enough to forgive having to input a multitude of varying passwords in succession just to get their session going.
    - brnt 6y ago
      Don't get me wrong, Telegram is a very nice app, and I especially like the wide platform support. It's great at what it does, and that's many things, but unfortunately not secure-by-default communication.
    - Arathorn 6y ago
      On the Matrix side we’re removing the recovery passphrase shortly; it was a misstep.
      - emptysongglass 6y ago
        Thank you for your work! I run my own federated homeserver that I really enjoy digging in with on the weekends. Between selfhosting email and Synapse I really feel a sense of reverent ownership over these methods of communication.