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The cost of Arch over anything else is 100% in the installation. After that, it IS Manjaro except you are using the real thing, not a derivative. I've had to tr

by pkulak 6y ago

The cost of Arch over anything else is 100% in the installation. After that, it IS Manjaro except you are using the real thing, not a derivative. I've had to trouble shoot Arch far less than any other distro I've ever used.

Sevaris 6y ago
My main problem with Arch is that there's rarely a point where I feel like I've finished installing. There's always something missing or something not configured right. Shit, dialog still isn't a default package in 2020, which you need to use wifi-menu during the install process. So if you happen to forget to install that (and it isn't mentioned anywhere in the documentation), you're going to have to reboot into the live media, chroot into your install, install dialog, then reboot again. https://www.archlinux.org/packages/core/any/netctl/ https://www.archlinux.org/packages/core/any/netctl/ Why in the fuck is dialog an optional dependency? Which sort of ties into my next problem which is that Arch simply isn't opinionated enough. Which is fine for people who want that kind of experience, but if you used Ubuntu before and you want a similar "install and go" experience, Arch really isn't the right answer. It is if your goal is to tinker with Arch, but that isn't what everybody wants.
- nsajko 6y ago
  > Why in the fuck is dialog an optional dependency? Not all people who use netctl want wifi-menu. > it isn't mentioned anywhere in the documentation It sure is. https://wiki.archlinux.org/index.php/Installation_guide https://wiki.archlinux.org/index.php/Installation_guide -> https://wiki.archlinux.org/index.php/Network_configuration https://wiki.archlinux.org/index.php/Network_configuration -> https://wiki.archlinux.org/index.php/Netctl https://wiki.archlinux.org/index.php/Netctl And there on the top of the netctl page it lists in a table dialog as a dependency of wifi-menu. > Which sort of ties into my next problem which is that Arch simply isn't opinionated enough. Maybe, but not all people have the same opinions...
  - Sevaris 6y ago
    Please tell me you're fucking joking. You can't be serious. This ties into one of my other comments about how god awful the documentation is for beginners (or even intermediates) after scrapping the beginner's guide. > Maybe, but not all people have the same opinions... Yes. And that's fucking fine. Arch Linux isn't opinionated. Which is great, but not what I (or others) might be looking for in a distro.
    - vel0city 6y ago
      Installing Gentoo is super simple. It only takes three commands to install Gentoo. # cfdisk /dev/hda && mkfs.xfs /dev/hda1 && mount /dev/hda1 /mnt/gentoo/ && chroot /mnt/gentoo/ && env-update && . /etc/profile && emerge sync && cd /usr/portage && scripts/bootsrap.sh && emerge system && emerge vim && vi /etc/fstab && emerge gentoo-dev-sources && cd /usr/src/linux && make menuconfig && make install modules_install && emerge gnome mozilla-firefox openoffice && emerge grub && cp /boot/grub/grub.conf.samp le /boot/grub/grub.conf && vi /boot/grub/grub.conf && grub && init 6 That's the first one... http://bash.org/?464385 http://bash.org/?464385
    - vermilingua 6y ago
      On the other hand, it’s the RTFM approach of Arch documentation that forced me and others I know to actually learn Linux, and step up from beginner use to power user status. Sure, if you want to remain a Linux beginner forever, the Arch docs would be terrible.
      - jiofih 6y ago
        This whole thread started from “ I just want an OS, not a hobby”. So, no thanks.
        pkulak 6y ago
        Well, my point was just that yes, Arch takes longer to install, and requires work, but it doesn't become a "hobby" _after_ that. Then people got into a flame war about how hard it is to install, which it is, and I freely acknowledge. :shrug:
- m463 6y ago
  Sounds like you're not an arch person (which is fine). I find arch refreshing. by the way, I like yad.
  - Sevaris 6y ago
    I used to be when I was younger. I used to spend days and weeks on this stuff and enjoyed it. But nowadays I have more important (and interesting) things to do (from my perspective).
    - sk5t 6y ago
      Ditto, have downloaded sources from kernel.org and mirrors and predecessors probably hundreds of times, wrestled endlessly with xf86config, window manager configs, installed slackware, gentoo... it got old, real old.
- pkulak 6y ago
  Hmm... not my experience. Not discounting yours at all, I promise, but I have a 20-package one-liner install script that I run on new systems and it's ready to go. After I pull in my dotfiles and symlink them into place, I can't even tell it's a different install. Arch is pretty much exactly as opinionated as I want a distro to be. Hell, there are LOTS of folks who think it's too opinionated for forcing you to use systemd. The real installer is pacstrap, and it installs, I think, 300+ megs of stuff. That's all someone's opinion. And keeping it to just 300 megs is an opinion too, I guess. EDIT: Okay, re-reading, and it sounds like installing 20 packages is a pain. But when I used Ubuntu I had to go through way more to get it how I liked it (and OS X is a nightmare 2 hours of clicking menus and buttons, and installing from web pages). I don't remember all of it now, but I had to get rid of the weird mini-vim and replace it with neovim, strip out Libre Office (nothing against them, I just have no use and it's a pain to wait for the giant updates all the time), my printer drivers were on a webpage somewhere, not the repo like Arch, etc. Ubuntu is WAY more work for me to get set up with just because removing and replacing is more work than installing.
pacifika 6y ago
That’s a good case for using Manjaro.
beowulfey 6y ago
My experience with Arch a few years ago was if you miss a few updates things tend to get REALLY broken. More than once I would have to hard reset some things because pacman + aurget would break something. If you update every day it’s okay, but it wasn’t my daily driver and I ran into that problem a lot!
mekster 6y ago
I'm inclined to think that complexity in the installation is to put away random impatient users to keep the community cleaner. Of course many cloud providers provide a pre installed OS image too though.

by pkulak 6y ago

Sevaris 6y ago

My main problem with Arch is that there's rarely a point where I feel like I've finished installing. There's always something missing or something not configured right. Shit, dialog still isn't a default package in 2020, which you need to use wifi-menu during the install process. So if you happen to forget to install that (and it isn't mentioned anywhere in the documentation), you're going to have to reboot into the live media, chroot into your install, install dialog, then reboot again. https://www.archlinux.org/packages/core/any/netctl/ https://www.archlinux.org/packages/core/any/netctl/ Why in the fuck is dialog an optional dependency? Which sort of ties into my next problem which is that Arch simply isn't opinionated enough. Which is fine for people who want that kind of experience, but if you used Ubuntu before and you want a similar "install and go" experience, Arch really isn't the right answer. It is if your goal is to tinker with Arch, but that isn't what everybody wants.

nsajko 6y ago
> Why in the fuck is dialog an optional dependency? Not all people who use netctl want wifi-menu. > it isn't mentioned anywhere in the documentation It sure is. https://wiki.archlinux.org/index.php/Installation_guide https://wiki.archlinux.org/index.php/Installation_guide -> https://wiki.archlinux.org/index.php/Network_configuration https://wiki.archlinux.org/index.php/Network_configuration -> https://wiki.archlinux.org/index.php/Netctl https://wiki.archlinux.org/index.php/Netctl And there on the top of the netctl page it lists in a table dialog as a dependency of wifi-menu. > Which sort of ties into my next problem which is that Arch simply isn't opinionated enough. Maybe, but not all people have the same opinions...
- Sevaris 6y ago
  Please tell me you're fucking joking. You can't be serious. This ties into one of my other comments about how god awful the documentation is for beginners (or even intermediates) after scrapping the beginner's guide. > Maybe, but not all people have the same opinions... Yes. And that's fucking fine. Arch Linux isn't opinionated. Which is great, but not what I (or others) might be looking for in a distro.
  - vel0city 6y ago
    Installing Gentoo is super simple. It only takes three commands to install Gentoo. # cfdisk /dev/hda && mkfs.xfs /dev/hda1 && mount /dev/hda1 /mnt/gentoo/ && chroot /mnt/gentoo/ && env-update && . /etc/profile && emerge sync && cd /usr/portage && scripts/bootsrap.sh && emerge system && emerge vim && vi /etc/fstab && emerge gentoo-dev-sources && cd /usr/src/linux && make menuconfig && make install modules_install && emerge gnome mozilla-firefox openoffice && emerge grub && cp /boot/grub/grub.conf.samp le /boot/grub/grub.conf && vi /boot/grub/grub.conf && grub && init 6 That's the first one... http://bash.org/?464385 http://bash.org/?464385
  - vermilingua 6y ago
    On the other hand, it’s the RTFM approach of Arch documentation that forced me and others I know to actually learn Linux, and step up from beginner use to power user status. Sure, if you want to remain a Linux beginner forever, the Arch docs would be terrible.
    - jiofih 6y ago
      This whole thread started from “ I just want an OS, not a hobby”. So, no thanks.
      - pkulak 6y ago
        Well, my point was just that yes, Arch takes longer to install, and requires work, but it doesn't become a "hobby" _after_ that. Then people got into a flame war about how hard it is to install, which it is, and I freely acknowledge. :shrug:
m463 6y ago
Sounds like you're not an arch person (which is fine). I find arch refreshing. by the way, I like yad.
- Sevaris 6y ago
  I used to be when I was younger. I used to spend days and weeks on this stuff and enjoyed it. But nowadays I have more important (and interesting) things to do (from my perspective).
  - sk5t 6y ago
    Ditto, have downloaded sources from kernel.org and mirrors and predecessors probably hundreds of times, wrestled endlessly with xf86config, window manager configs, installed slackware, gentoo... it got old, real old.
pkulak 6y ago
Hmm... not my experience. Not discounting yours at all, I promise, but I have a 20-package one-liner install script that I run on new systems and it's ready to go. After I pull in my dotfiles and symlink them into place, I can't even tell it's a different install. Arch is pretty much exactly as opinionated as I want a distro to be. Hell, there are LOTS of folks who think it's too opinionated for forcing you to use systemd. The real installer is pacstrap, and it installs, I think, 300+ megs of stuff. That's all someone's opinion. And keeping it to just 300 megs is an opinion too, I guess. EDIT: Okay, re-reading, and it sounds like installing 20 packages is a pain. But when I used Ubuntu I had to go through way more to get it how I liked it (and OS X is a nightmare 2 hours of clicking menus and buttons, and installing from web pages). I don't remember all of it now, but I had to get rid of the weird mini-vim and replace it with neovim, strip out Libre Office (nothing against them, I just have no use and it's a pain to wait for the giant updates all the time), my printer drivers were on a webpage somewhere, not the repo like Arch, etc. Ubuntu is WAY more work for me to get set up with just because removing and replacing is more work than installing.

pacifika 6y ago

That’s a good case for using Manjaro.

beowulfey 6y ago

My experience with Arch a few years ago was if you miss a few updates things tend to get REALLY broken. More than once I would have to hard reset some things because pacman + aurget would break something. If you update every day it’s okay, but it wasn’t my daily driver and I ran into that problem a lot!

mekster 6y ago

I'm inclined to think that complexity in the installation is to put away random impatient users to keep the community cleaner. Of course many cloud providers provide a pre installed OS image too though.