4 ms·

The hypothetical you’re clearly referring to here is a high-performing white or Asian applicant who regrettably has to be rejected to make room for a mediocre b

The hypothetical you’re clearly referring to here is a high-performing white or Asian applicant who regrettably has to be rejected to make room for a mediocre black applicant. This concern is 1% based in reality and 99% based in racist resentment. Companies make hiring decisions based on all sorts of factors that have nothing to do with performance. Two extremely problematic ones are: 1) soft “skills” like charisma, rapport, etc, which are much more about social identity than social ability, and in particular discriminate against nonwhites, women, and many LGBT people 2) Unvarnished and criminal Klan-style racism, such as turning down a well-qualified job applicant because his name is Jamal, or assuming a black woman must have lied about her 3.9 GPA, which is still rampant in all 50 United States, and an enormous reason for the black-white wealth and income disparity. This sort of blatant discrimination has been repeatedly observed in the 21st century and is a plain fact. These two practices are not only widespread and illegal, they also deprive companies of good talent. The reason for diversity quotas isn’t to distort a (nonexistent) meritocratic hiring process, but instead to correct grotesque violations in actually existing hiring practices.

km3r 6y ago
Do you have any sources to back this up? I figured that may have been the case a few decades ago but I imagined nowadays the affirmative action outweighs those factors on a macro scale.
- wayoutthere 6y ago
  Coming from someone who used to be seen as a white man and is now seen as a white woman, it matters. Noticing that it mattered for me made me take notice when it happens to others. Spoiler: it happens a lot. I shut it down real fast when it happens in front of me, but I used to be part of the problem as well. It's (usually) not malice; people genuinely don't realize that "cultural fit" is usually code for "like me". That ability to be blind to things like that is essentially the nature of what people call "privilege". Doesn't make you a bad person, it just means you should probably listen to other perspectives before you interject your own. "Affirmative action" isn't a thing. It never really was. All it ever meant was ensuring that opportunities were offered to minorities to interview, but those opportunities still paid out at a below-average rate relative to straight / white / male people. Your company won't share diversity numbers outside of HR, but if you have a friend you can usually get them off the record. They don't share them because the numbers are bad.
- ojnabieoot 6y ago
  I am sorry to keep being uncharitable about this but I am angry and frustrated: the reason you “figured” it may have been the case a long time ago but you “imagine” that nowadays we have the reverse problem is because you are an ignorant racist who is filling your gaps in knowledge with white resentment. I will try to alleviate some of the ignorant side of this: March 2020, results from a field experiment demonstrating persistent unambiguous racist discrimination: https://www.nber.org/papers/w26861 https://www.nber.org/papers/w26861 This is a recent example of a famous series of experiments, where otherwise identical fictitious resumes are given “black-sounding” or “white-sounding” names (or addresses, alma maters, etc), and the researchers count how many callbacks the resumes get. If the black resumes get significantly less callbacks there is no alternative explanation than illegal racism. The classic experiment is “Are Emily and Greg More Employable than Lakisha and Jamal?” from 2003: https://www.nber.org/papers/w9873 https://www.nber.org/papers/w9873 A 2016 retrospective of similar labor discrimination field experiments: https://www.nber.org/papers/w22022 https://www.nber.org/papers/w22022 Evidence of improving but ongoing racist discrimination against black business owners seeking credit: https://www.nber.org/papers/w13972 https://www.nber.org/papers/w13972 2011 paper estimating that 1/3rd of the black-white wage gap is due solely to employment discrimination: https://www.nber.org/papers/w17462 https://www.nber.org/papers/w17462 (it has been established elsewhere that about ~1/2 the wage gap is due to the education/credentials gap) An interesting 2019 paper finding virtually no discrimination against Native Americans and Hawaiians: https://www.nber.org/papers/w25849 https://www.nber.org/papers/w25849 (this is relevant to the sociological view that American racial stratification is anti-black more than pro-white, or rather that “white” really means “not black”) This is just from one google search of the NBER archives on my phone. This evidence exists in spades.
  - wayoutthere 6y ago
    I wish I could upvote this comment 1000 times.
  - ifokiedoke 6y ago
    Hey, I agree with everything that is being said here but I think it might be unnecessary here to be making personal attacks such as calling somebody racist or implying white resentment because somebody is mis-informed. Especially because -- growing up in a racist society -- we all have internalized racism in some way, which we're just slowly trying to unlearn. Just based on current events, even many dense non-Whites (myself included) have just started to realize how deep the problem goes when it goes to both conscious and unconscious bias. We can definitely do better, and I hope the trends do indeed show that we're heading that way.
- deleted 6y ago
  [deleted]
flyinglizard 6y ago
> soft “skills” like charisma, rapport, etc, which are much more about social identity than social ability, and in particular discriminate against nonwhites, women, and many LGBT people That sounds plenty racist to me* * two can play this game
- ShrCul 6y ago
  Stating which demographics beyond race the commenter believes is being significantly discriminated against is not racist. This is not discrimination against white people. It is not false either - lgbtq people have a higher chance of suicide, there's a signriciant wage gap between men and women across fields and industries, employers can also be racist. If you are uncertain of these well known facts, I have nothing to say. Two can play a game indeed if both know what they're doing.
CyberDildonics 6y ago
What I said was a generality, I was not alluding to any of this. Hiring or not hiring based on a protected class in the US is illegal.
perl4ever 6y ago
How do people use `soft “skills” like charisma, rapport etc' as the excuse for rejecting a woman in favor of a typical white male neckbeard with a straight face? It's weird that people who everybody agrees lack social skills can be so entrenched in society. Maybe we need more education at an early age as to what social ability is and isn't.

km3r 6y ago

Do you have any sources to back this up? I figured that may have been the case a few decades ago but I imagined nowadays the affirmative action outweighs those factors on a macro scale.

wayoutthere 6y ago
Coming from someone who used to be seen as a white man and is now seen as a white woman, it matters. Noticing that it mattered for me made me take notice when it happens to others. Spoiler: it happens a lot. I shut it down real fast when it happens in front of me, but I used to be part of the problem as well. It's (usually) not malice; people genuinely don't realize that "cultural fit" is usually code for "like me". That ability to be blind to things like that is essentially the nature of what people call "privilege". Doesn't make you a bad person, it just means you should probably listen to other perspectives before you interject your own. "Affirmative action" isn't a thing. It never really was. All it ever meant was ensuring that opportunities were offered to minorities to interview, but those opportunities still paid out at a below-average rate relative to straight / white / male people. Your company won't share diversity numbers outside of HR, but if you have a friend you can usually get them off the record. They don't share them because the numbers are bad.
ojnabieoot 6y ago
I am sorry to keep being uncharitable about this but I am angry and frustrated: the reason you “figured” it may have been the case a long time ago but you “imagine” that nowadays we have the reverse problem is because you are an ignorant racist who is filling your gaps in knowledge with white resentment. I will try to alleviate some of the ignorant side of this: March 2020, results from a field experiment demonstrating persistent unambiguous racist discrimination: https://www.nber.org/papers/w26861 https://www.nber.org/papers/w26861 This is a recent example of a famous series of experiments, where otherwise identical fictitious resumes are given “black-sounding” or “white-sounding” names (or addresses, alma maters, etc), and the researchers count how many callbacks the resumes get. If the black resumes get significantly less callbacks there is no alternative explanation than illegal racism. The classic experiment is “Are Emily and Greg More Employable than Lakisha and Jamal?” from 2003: https://www.nber.org/papers/w9873 https://www.nber.org/papers/w9873 A 2016 retrospective of similar labor discrimination field experiments: https://www.nber.org/papers/w22022 https://www.nber.org/papers/w22022 Evidence of improving but ongoing racist discrimination against black business owners seeking credit: https://www.nber.org/papers/w13972 https://www.nber.org/papers/w13972 2011 paper estimating that 1/3rd of the black-white wage gap is due solely to employment discrimination: https://www.nber.org/papers/w17462 https://www.nber.org/papers/w17462 (it has been established elsewhere that about ~1/2 the wage gap is due to the education/credentials gap) An interesting 2019 paper finding virtually no discrimination against Native Americans and Hawaiians: https://www.nber.org/papers/w25849 https://www.nber.org/papers/w25849 (this is relevant to the sociological view that American racial stratification is anti-black more than pro-white, or rather that “white” really means “not black”) This is just from one google search of the NBER archives on my phone. This evidence exists in spades.
- wayoutthere 6y ago
  I wish I could upvote this comment 1000 times.
- ifokiedoke 6y ago
  Hey, I agree with everything that is being said here but I think it might be unnecessary here to be making personal attacks such as calling somebody racist or implying white resentment because somebody is mis-informed. Especially because -- growing up in a racist society -- we all have internalized racism in some way, which we're just slowly trying to unlearn. Just based on current events, even many dense non-Whites (myself included) have just started to realize how deep the problem goes when it goes to both conscious and unconscious bias. We can definitely do better, and I hope the trends do indeed show that we're heading that way.
deleted 6y ago
[deleted]

flyinglizard 6y ago

> soft “skills” like charisma, rapport, etc, which are much more about social identity than social ability, and in particular discriminate against nonwhites, women, and many LGBT people That sounds plenty racist to me* * two can play this game

ShrCul 6y ago
Stating which demographics beyond race the commenter believes is being significantly discriminated against is not racist. This is not discrimination against white people. It is not false either - lgbtq people have a higher chance of suicide, there's a signriciant wage gap between men and women across fields and industries, employers can also be racist. If you are uncertain of these well known facts, I have nothing to say. Two can play a game indeed if both know what they're doing.

CyberDildonics 6y ago

What I said was a generality, I was not alluding to any of this. Hiring or not hiring based on a protected class in the US is illegal.

perl4ever 6y ago

How do people use `soft “skills” like charisma, rapport etc' as the excuse for rejecting a woman in favor of a typical white male neckbeard with a straight face? It's weird that people who everybody agrees lack social skills can be so entrenched in society. Maybe we need more education at an early age as to what social ability is and isn't.