4 ms·

Ok but it's a pretty hard job and mistakes are unavoidable just like with any job. I'm pretty fine here, when I make a code mistake I can fix it, and I'm paid

Ok but it's a pretty hard job and mistakes are unavoidable just like with any job. I'm pretty fine here, when I make a code mistake I can fix it, and I'm paid so much more than a cop. I suppose that would be a good reason for me to bitch about cops in general right ? At least, that's what it seems when I read comments on hn the last days.

jakelazaroff 6y ago
These are not "mistakes". The police are unwilling to disambiguate between peaceful protesters and looters. I live in NYC, where looting has largely stopped and every single protest I've been to has been peaceful — yet police begin indiscriminately assaulting protesters as soon as curfew ends, and threatening reporters who dare document it.
- oaue0823 6y ago
  You're saying that the police doesn't need to be that aggressive because the loots have stopped. What makes you so sure that the loots haven't actually stopped because the police takes an aggressive stand ? They are doing their job, now the results will have to show durability before someone changes their orders.
ssklash 6y ago
Because it's a hard job that doesn't pay well we should expect mediocrity? And mediocre is probably a good outcome, considering that bad policing often ends in death. Being president or a member of Congress is a hard job, yet we expect, rightfully so, a damn good job done, or we find someone else. Sure we should pay them better, and I suspect salary increases would be plentiful if you took them out of the military equipment fund they all seem to have. The police unquestionably have a hard job, and are granted immense powers to do it. We all know what comes with great power. But if the single group of people endowed with the authority to deny you your rights is not held to the highest of standards, can anyone be surprised that so many are having their rights, and even their lives, taken from them?
- oaue0823 6y ago
  What makes you think we should expect mediocrity ? Just because a few cases here and there make the front page of tabloids ? How exactly do you plan to absolutely eliminate any mistake from policing ? You know, what we explain to antivaxx people, is that the benefits largely outweight the inconvenience, that's just basic pragmatism.
  - stlark 6y ago
    Seems extremely disingenuous to label it as "...a few cases here and there make the front page of tabloids..."
  - ssklash 6y ago
    No one expects perfection. Obviously. No one said anything about no mistakes. You pulled that out of nowhere. The issue is accountability for those mistakes. Of which there is not enough. Hence the current protests. What incentive do police have when they investigate themselves and there are no consequences, or slaps on the wrists, transfers to other departments, etc? You would at least get fired for repeatedly shipping buggy code and showing no desire to change it. Except in the case of the police, it would be like your boss investigating the bugs, agreeing with you that they are not in fact bugs, and saying good job, you did what you were supposed to. No other job functions this way. Why do we let the profession with the power to use deadly force function this way?
brendoelfrendo 6y ago
I'm kind of unsure of your point here. If you make a coding mistake, you fix it, and you move on. Presumably, that mistake didn't kill anyone. Kneeling on someone's neck for 8 minutes and 46 seconds is not a mistake. Shooting someone in their own home after you serve a no-knock warrant is not a mistake. Shoving an old man to the ground and walking past his bleeding body is not a mistake. Even if the officer didn't intend to kill someone, someone is now dead. If we trust police with the authority over life and death (and really, I don't think we should), we should at least hold them to the highest and strictest standards of conduct.
deleted_account 6y ago
Look at it this way, what would you think of a development team that shipped bugs to production and had...no code reviews...no unit tests...no bug tracking system? And every time they shipped a bug someone died? You might be inclined to improve the process, right? I won't belabor the analogy. Campaign Zero has a great summary of the policy changes that can help: https://www.joincampaignzero.org/solutions https://www.joincampaignzero.org/solutions
- thelean12 6y ago
  Why do so many people need to be so extreme? Zero is impossible. If you want to make the development argument, then you should know that bugs are unavoidable. Even from the best developers in the world. No amount of code reviews, tests, or processes will change that. Can you reduce? Of course. By a really large amount? Probably. But "zero" is an impossible goal. The statement "We can live in a world where the police don't kill people" just makes you look dumb and naive. 8cantwait.org at least has a realistic number backed by studies.
  - pjc50 6y ago
    Norway manage it: https://www.businessinsider.com/norway-america-police-killing-comparison?r=US&IR=T https://www.businessinsider.com/norway-america-police-killin... Zero is the only reasonable target. Every death should be treated as a process and policy failure. Every death should lead to an improvement. It will be a long way to get there, but as JFK said, we do these things not because they are easy.
    - thelean12 6y ago
      A country with minimal diversity that's less than 2% the population of the US. A country whose largest city has an extremely lower population density than US cities (10x less than NYC, 7x less than LA). You can't just cherry pick data and think it's applicable.
  - deleted_account 6y ago
    Stop. Think. You're making a "perfect is the enemy of the good" argument which ultimately supports police brutality and systemic racism. (I'll also point out that 8cantwait.org is a Campaign Zero project. Thank you for linking it.)
sacred_numbers 6y ago
The problem is that cops (and prosecutors and judges) protect each other from accountability. If you saw your co-worker hit a pedestrian because they made a mistake driving would you lie for your co-worker and say that the pedestrian jumped out in front of the car? I hope not. Likewise, if you saw your co-worker intentionally hit someone with their car would you lie to protect them? If you did, that would make both of you bad, even though you never hit anyone with your car. That's what people are protesting: the fact that police can brutalize people without consequence.

jakelazaroff 6y ago

These are not "mistakes". The police are unwilling to disambiguate between peaceful protesters and looters. I live in NYC, where looting has largely stopped and every single protest I've been to has been peaceful — yet police begin indiscriminately assaulting protesters as soon as curfew ends, and threatening reporters who dare document it.

oaue0823 6y ago
You're saying that the police doesn't need to be that aggressive because the loots have stopped. What makes you so sure that the loots haven't actually stopped because the police takes an aggressive stand ? They are doing their job, now the results will have to show durability before someone changes their orders.

ssklash 6y ago

Because it's a hard job that doesn't pay well we should expect mediocrity? And mediocre is probably a good outcome, considering that bad policing often ends in death. Being president or a member of Congress is a hard job, yet we expect, rightfully so, a damn good job done, or we find someone else. Sure we should pay them better, and I suspect salary increases would be plentiful if you took them out of the military equipment fund they all seem to have. The police unquestionably have a hard job, and are granted immense powers to do it. We all know what comes with great power. But if the single group of people endowed with the authority to deny you your rights is not held to the highest of standards, can anyone be surprised that so many are having their rights, and even their lives, taken from them?

oaue0823 6y ago
What makes you think we should expect mediocrity ? Just because a few cases here and there make the front page of tabloids ? How exactly do you plan to absolutely eliminate any mistake from policing ? You know, what we explain to antivaxx people, is that the benefits largely outweight the inconvenience, that's just basic pragmatism.
- stlark 6y ago
  Seems extremely disingenuous to label it as "...a few cases here and there make the front page of tabloids..."
- ssklash 6y ago
  No one expects perfection. Obviously. No one said anything about no mistakes. You pulled that out of nowhere. The issue is accountability for those mistakes. Of which there is not enough. Hence the current protests. What incentive do police have when they investigate themselves and there are no consequences, or slaps on the wrists, transfers to other departments, etc? You would at least get fired for repeatedly shipping buggy code and showing no desire to change it. Except in the case of the police, it would be like your boss investigating the bugs, agreeing with you that they are not in fact bugs, and saying good job, you did what you were supposed to. No other job functions this way. Why do we let the profession with the power to use deadly force function this way?

brendoelfrendo 6y ago

I'm kind of unsure of your point here. If you make a coding mistake, you fix it, and you move on. Presumably, that mistake didn't kill anyone. Kneeling on someone's neck for 8 minutes and 46 seconds is not a mistake. Shooting someone in their own home after you serve a no-knock warrant is not a mistake. Shoving an old man to the ground and walking past his bleeding body is not a mistake. Even if the officer didn't intend to kill someone, someone is now dead. If we trust police with the authority over life and death (and really, I don't think we should), we should at least hold them to the highest and strictest standards of conduct.

deleted_account 6y ago

Look at it this way, what would you think of a development team that shipped bugs to production and had...no code reviews...no unit tests...no bug tracking system? And every time they shipped a bug someone died? You might be inclined to improve the process, right? I won't belabor the analogy. Campaign Zero has a great summary of the policy changes that can help: https://www.joincampaignzero.org/solutions https://www.joincampaignzero.org/solutions

thelean12 6y ago
Why do so many people need to be so extreme? Zero is impossible. If you want to make the development argument, then you should know that bugs are unavoidable. Even from the best developers in the world. No amount of code reviews, tests, or processes will change that. Can you reduce? Of course. By a really large amount? Probably. But "zero" is an impossible goal. The statement "We can live in a world where the police don't kill people" just makes you look dumb and naive. 8cantwait.org at least has a realistic number backed by studies.
- pjc50 6y ago
  Norway manage it: https://www.businessinsider.com/norway-america-police-killing-comparison?r=US&IR=T https://www.businessinsider.com/norway-america-police-killin... Zero is the only reasonable target. Every death should be treated as a process and policy failure. Every death should lead to an improvement. It will be a long way to get there, but as JFK said, we do these things not because they are easy.
  - thelean12 6y ago
    A country with minimal diversity that's less than 2% the population of the US. A country whose largest city has an extremely lower population density than US cities (10x less than NYC, 7x less than LA). You can't just cherry pick data and think it's applicable.
- deleted_account 6y ago
  Stop. Think. You're making a "perfect is the enemy of the good" argument which ultimately supports police brutality and systemic racism. (I'll also point out that 8cantwait.org is a Campaign Zero project. Thank you for linking it.)

sacred_numbers 6y ago

The problem is that cops (and prosecutors and judges) protect each other from accountability. If you saw your co-worker hit a pedestrian because they made a mistake driving would you lie for your co-worker and say that the pedestrian jumped out in front of the car? I hope not. Likewise, if you saw your co-worker intentionally hit someone with their car would you lie to protect them? If you did, that would make both of you bad, even though you never hit anyone with your car. That's what people are protesting: the fact that police can brutalize people without consequence.