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This may sound crazy, but for those who can't tolerate a CPAP, an effective alternative is playing the didgeridoo.[1] Anecdotally my wife and kids were complai

This may sound crazy, but for those who can't tolerate a CPAP, an effective alternative is playing the didgeridoo.[1] Anecdotally my wife and kids were complaining about my snoring, and I bought one for $40 off Amazon. Not only has my snoring improved, but my lung capacity has improved. Plus it's just fun to play. [1]https://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pmc/articles/PMC1360393/ https://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pmc/articles/PMC1360393/

tartoran 6y ago
Yes, fixing out the lung capacity, musculature of the diaphragm, throat, tongue, etc is really the cure. And loosing excess weight if that is the case. CPAP, while effective and life changing is a band aid that the medical industry can make money on. I don't hear anyone saying that the CPAP should be used in conjunction with restorative exercises. I'm glad you found this solution.
- unishark 6y ago
  I'm pretty sure healthcare providers everywhere inform people who need to exercise and lose weight that they need to exercise and lose weight. Not really fair to ding them for making money on other treatments for people who can't bring themselves to do it the natural way.
  - tartoran 6y ago
    You may be right, I've never been diagnosed and put on CPAP personally and can't say whether that is true or not. But in general the western medicine has come to a point that it tends to offer solutions that are quite good at reducing the symptoms and generally don't address the underlying cause. It may be incompetence of the system or it may as well be financial incentives, slightly steered towards not providing a cure and but milking the patients for more money with symptom reducers. But on you're right on one thing though, a lot patients are lazy and would choose the quick fix over doing some of the work themselves.
  - westoncb 6y ago
    In my experience this is actually rare. I've heard many similar stories to mine here from friends and family, but briefly, my own recent experience with this kind of thing: I saw four doctors across two states trying to resolve a certain medical condition, which happens to be very common, has very negative effects, and has low recovery rates. They prescribed a couple different medications, and mentioned that the disorder is "associated with" a list of a bunch of things related to lifestyle and diet. (These items were never brought up again by any doctor after their initial brief mention: it was a kind of "going through the motions" with each doctor—part of the obligatory informative synopsis of the disorder.) The medications did practically nothing, and experimenting with briefly removing different items on the list from my life did practically nothing. Meanwhile my life was severely negatively impacted by this for ~4 years. Eventually I decide to "get healthier" in a general way with an improved diet, insistence on regularly getting sufficient sleep, reduced alcohol consumption, and regular strength training. A few months later the condition was at about 50%, and now it's at a point where I'm barely bothered by it. I'm also a Type 1 diabetic and ran into a similar thing there: the recommendations given to me by doctors were incompatible with the blood sugar ranges they described as desirable. So I did my own research and discovered that basically everyone who had really good numbers was doing massive carbohydrate reduction in addition to taking insulin. What it came down to in both cases: doctors will not prescribe lifestyle changes. They may mention them, but their core solution is likely to be a medication + tweaking dosage—even if this is by comparison far less useful. I do think there's a legitimate reason, though: most people are simply not willing to make these kind of lifestyle changes. However, for those who are willing to do it, there's a good chance they'll lack the info on how effective it can be, because it's not what their doctor is going to emphasize. (I'd urge anyone who thinks my cases may be uncommon to try this: if you know someone who resolved a medical condition by general lifestyle improvements like diet, sleep, exercise etc.—see if they made the changes because a doctor recommended it or if the motivation come from somewhere else.)
    - cloverich 6y ago
      Its not actually less useful, because typically very few people follow through on lifestyle improvements. When I went through medical school they did not skip this -- we were all taught well how much of an impact lifestyle change would affect outcomes across various diseases, and even then how little change was required (e.g. 10 lbs lost makes a drastic difference for those overweight). There is simply a very low uptake of lifestyle change and even then, a large percentage who reject it outright (e.g. the number of people who reject that calories are the primary determinant of weight). Its a cultural thing in that, in America at least, we don't have good cultural norms around food and activity that promote a healthy lifestyle. Which is unfortunate, given that is the primary influence (that we can control, obviously genes matter more) of many chronic health conditions.
- Eliezer 6y ago
  Sacrificed months of productivity to fast off 70 pounds in hope it would fix sleep apnea. It didn't.
  - ValentineC 6y ago
    How was your productivity affected during your weight loss?
  - kilo_bravo_3 6y ago
    I snored so loudly that when I was in basic training that they made me sleep all of the way at the opposite end of the open-bay barracks we were in. I was 18 and near the height of physical perfection. As far back as 10 years old I remember feeling miserable every single morning even after getting a full night's sleep. At age 35 I got a CPAP and finally fixed a quarter century of piss-poor sleep.
    - bg4 6y ago
      My entire academic life was affected by always being sleepy. Falling asleep in band class in high school with the saxophone in my mouth, etc. I was a track & field athelete and was in good shape. Finally got a cpap as an adult, along with vitamin d supplements, has improved it.
    - metrokoi 6y ago
      This is so frustrating. Surely millions or billions of humans having terrible sleep is not just some genetic abnormality, and we did not evolve to have terrible sleep only fixed by modern technology. There must be some underlying issue that can be addressed for the majority of people.
      - sweetsocks21 6y ago
        I got diagnosed with sleep apnea and asked about this, since I'm not overweight. The doctor said it's more about the structure of the mouth and throat than obesity. There is an area at the back of the tongue that gathers more fat and can block the throat, but palette structure is a big factor. Along with jaw size and throat size. I remember reading not too long ago on HN an article about our dental health in modern times: https://www.scientificamerican.com/article/why-we-have-so-many-problems-with-our-teeth/ https://www.scientificamerican.com/article/why-we-have-so-ma... It could be our diet contributing to smaller jaws/palettes that increase the prevalence sleep apnea?
- Gatsky 6y ago
  To be fair, CPAP was originally developed for people with severe sleep apnoea and other neuromuscular disorders that have no other option.
- walamaking 6y ago
  > CPAP ... is a band aid that the medical industry can make money on. Incredibly uninformed.
- outworlder 6y ago
  > while effective and life changing is a band aid that the medical industry can make money on This is a really dangerous comment. Yes, it's true that, for some, weight loss is all that's needed. There are people who need CPAP and no sort of 'lung capacity' and musculature exercises will help. A former coworker even had central sleep apnea. Exercise that. Exercise helps with everything, but it doesn't mean one will be cured and stop needing CPAP. CPAP isn't that profitable even, considering how long the machines last and that supplies can be found elsewhere, so there's little incentive for medical providers to push them. In fact, in some countries, you'd be hard pressed to find insurers providing CPAP machines, as they are expensive. The only ROI they might have is with less future hospitalizations due to serious conditions. Untreated sleep apnea can massively increase the chances of heart attacks, strokes and many other conditions.
wincy 6y ago
I just ordered one, for $35 dollars what's the worse that could happen? Looks like fun, and if I don't use it hey, I have a cool didgeridoo that people can ask about at parties.
JoshTriplett 6y ago
In my case, I doubled my lung capacity through swimming, which did wonders for my health.
- CincinnatiMan 6y ago
  What measurement of lung capacity? That's pretty awesome and maybe I should look into it haha.
  - JoshTriplett 6y ago
    Any measurement you like: volume of air, duration I can hold my breath, and most relevantly, how quickly I get "winded". There are specific swimming exercises you can do, as part of a routine, that build lung capacity. (Results may not generalize. It worked for me.)
    - ashtonkem 6y ago
      I imagine that anything that taxes lung capacity will help. I’ve picked up the French Horn in quarantine, and it seems to be strengthening several mouth and jaw muscles, along with the improvements to lung capacity you’d expect.
TomJansen 6y ago
Wow I always wanted to play didgeridoo, but now I definitely want to buy one! Does you have any suggestions on which one to order?
- wincy 6y ago
  The study I read about apnea said people were given simple plastic didgeridoos. Authentic ones are $100-$2000, and a plastic one with beeswax was $35 on Amazon.
- dcolkitt 6y ago
  I just got a cheap knockoff on Amazon, because I've got young kids who are... destructive... However at least so far, the cheap one seems to work really well and I haven't any problems as a novice player.
1e-9 6y ago
Singing also appears to reduce snoring and sleep apnea by strengthening the pharyngeal muscles.[1] [1] https://file.scirp.org/Html/5-2460085_31850.htm https://file.scirp.org/Html/5-2460085_31850.htm
tlb 6y ago
Might some other instruments work too? Harmonica played in blues style (with bends) seems to work the palate muscles pretty hard. Not that I don’t love didgeridoo music :-/
- paragraft 6y ago
  I remember being fairly asthmatic as a kid until a year of clarinet. I also enjoyed rather suddenly being able to hold my breath over the duration of a nearby bridge in car trips, a talent I lorded over my brother who hadn't opted for a wind instrument...
odysseus 6y ago
Which one did you get?
- dcolkitt 6y ago
  Got this low-priced bamboo didgeridoo off Amazon[1] for $35. It's definitely not authentic or the best in the world, but it's surprisingly well constructed and aesthetic. [1] https://www.amazon.com/Meinl-Percussion-DDG1-BK-Didgeridoo-Painted/dp/B00275G6XQ/ref=sr_1_13?crid=3P4VNBFGTYVU5&dchild=1&keywords=didgeridoo&qid=1591418655&sprefix=didgerei%2Caps%2C343&sr=8-13 https://www.amazon.com/Meinl-Percussion-DDG1-BK-Didgeridoo-P...
  - odysseus 6y ago
    Thanks!
lemonberry 6y ago
Great tip, thanks! I ordered one as well. I've had respiratory issues since I was a child and this sounds like a fun way to work on it. I love the didgeridoo. One of my favorite albums to listen to while working is Aphex Twin's 'Digeridoo'. It's worth checking out.

tartoran 6y ago

Yes, fixing out the lung capacity, musculature of the diaphragm, throat, tongue, etc is really the cure. And loosing excess weight if that is the case. CPAP, while effective and life changing is a band aid that the medical industry can make money on. I don't hear anyone saying that the CPAP should be used in conjunction with restorative exercises. I'm glad you found this solution.

unishark 6y ago
I'm pretty sure healthcare providers everywhere inform people who need to exercise and lose weight that they need to exercise and lose weight. Not really fair to ding them for making money on other treatments for people who can't bring themselves to do it the natural way.
- tartoran 6y ago
  You may be right, I've never been diagnosed and put on CPAP personally and can't say whether that is true or not. But in general the western medicine has come to a point that it tends to offer solutions that are quite good at reducing the symptoms and generally don't address the underlying cause. It may be incompetence of the system or it may as well be financial incentives, slightly steered towards not providing a cure and but milking the patients for more money with symptom reducers. But on you're right on one thing though, a lot patients are lazy and would choose the quick fix over doing some of the work themselves.
- westoncb 6y ago
  In my experience this is actually rare. I've heard many similar stories to mine here from friends and family, but briefly, my own recent experience with this kind of thing: I saw four doctors across two states trying to resolve a certain medical condition, which happens to be very common, has very negative effects, and has low recovery rates. They prescribed a couple different medications, and mentioned that the disorder is "associated with" a list of a bunch of things related to lifestyle and diet. (These items were never brought up again by any doctor after their initial brief mention: it was a kind of "going through the motions" with each doctor—part of the obligatory informative synopsis of the disorder.) The medications did practically nothing, and experimenting with briefly removing different items on the list from my life did practically nothing. Meanwhile my life was severely negatively impacted by this for ~4 years. Eventually I decide to "get healthier" in a general way with an improved diet, insistence on regularly getting sufficient sleep, reduced alcohol consumption, and regular strength training. A few months later the condition was at about 50%, and now it's at a point where I'm barely bothered by it. I'm also a Type 1 diabetic and ran into a similar thing there: the recommendations given to me by doctors were incompatible with the blood sugar ranges they described as desirable. So I did my own research and discovered that basically everyone who had really good numbers was doing massive carbohydrate reduction in addition to taking insulin. What it came down to in both cases: doctors will not prescribe lifestyle changes. They may mention them, but their core solution is likely to be a medication + tweaking dosage—even if this is by comparison far less useful. I do think there's a legitimate reason, though: most people are simply not willing to make these kind of lifestyle changes. However, for those who are willing to do it, there's a good chance they'll lack the info on how effective it can be, because it's not what their doctor is going to emphasize. (I'd urge anyone who thinks my cases may be uncommon to try this: if you know someone who resolved a medical condition by general lifestyle improvements like diet, sleep, exercise etc.—see if they made the changes because a doctor recommended it or if the motivation come from somewhere else.)
  - cloverich 6y ago
    Its not actually less useful, because typically very few people follow through on lifestyle improvements. When I went through medical school they did not skip this -- we were all taught well how much of an impact lifestyle change would affect outcomes across various diseases, and even then how little change was required (e.g. 10 lbs lost makes a drastic difference for those overweight). There is simply a very low uptake of lifestyle change and even then, a large percentage who reject it outright (e.g. the number of people who reject that calories are the primary determinant of weight). Its a cultural thing in that, in America at least, we don't have good cultural norms around food and activity that promote a healthy lifestyle. Which is unfortunate, given that is the primary influence (that we can control, obviously genes matter more) of many chronic health conditions.
Eliezer 6y ago
Sacrificed months of productivity to fast off 70 pounds in hope it would fix sleep apnea. It didn't.
- ValentineC 6y ago
  How was your productivity affected during your weight loss?
- kilo_bravo_3 6y ago
  I snored so loudly that when I was in basic training that they made me sleep all of the way at the opposite end of the open-bay barracks we were in. I was 18 and near the height of physical perfection. As far back as 10 years old I remember feeling miserable every single morning even after getting a full night's sleep. At age 35 I got a CPAP and finally fixed a quarter century of piss-poor sleep.
  - bg4 6y ago
    My entire academic life was affected by always being sleepy. Falling asleep in band class in high school with the saxophone in my mouth, etc. I was a track & field athelete and was in good shape. Finally got a cpap as an adult, along with vitamin d supplements, has improved it.
  - metrokoi 6y ago
    This is so frustrating. Surely millions or billions of humans having terrible sleep is not just some genetic abnormality, and we did not evolve to have terrible sleep only fixed by modern technology. There must be some underlying issue that can be addressed for the majority of people.
    - sweetsocks21 6y ago
      I got diagnosed with sleep apnea and asked about this, since I'm not overweight. The doctor said it's more about the structure of the mouth and throat than obesity. There is an area at the back of the tongue that gathers more fat and can block the throat, but palette structure is a big factor. Along with jaw size and throat size. I remember reading not too long ago on HN an article about our dental health in modern times: https://www.scientificamerican.com/article/why-we-have-so-many-problems-with-our-teeth/ https://www.scientificamerican.com/article/why-we-have-so-ma... It could be our diet contributing to smaller jaws/palettes that increase the prevalence sleep apnea?
Gatsky 6y ago
To be fair, CPAP was originally developed for people with severe sleep apnoea and other neuromuscular disorders that have no other option.
walamaking 6y ago
> CPAP ... is a band aid that the medical industry can make money on. Incredibly uninformed.
outworlder 6y ago
> while effective and life changing is a band aid that the medical industry can make money on This is a really dangerous comment. Yes, it's true that, for some, weight loss is all that's needed. There are people who need CPAP and no sort of 'lung capacity' and musculature exercises will help. A former coworker even had central sleep apnea. Exercise that. Exercise helps with everything, but it doesn't mean one will be cured and stop needing CPAP. CPAP isn't that profitable even, considering how long the machines last and that supplies can be found elsewhere, so there's little incentive for medical providers to push them. In fact, in some countries, you'd be hard pressed to find insurers providing CPAP machines, as they are expensive. The only ROI they might have is with less future hospitalizations due to serious conditions. Untreated sleep apnea can massively increase the chances of heart attacks, strokes and many other conditions.

wincy 6y ago

I just ordered one, for $35 dollars what's the worse that could happen? Looks like fun, and if I don't use it hey, I have a cool didgeridoo that people can ask about at parties.

JoshTriplett 6y ago

In my case, I doubled my lung capacity through swimming, which did wonders for my health.

CincinnatiMan 6y ago
What measurement of lung capacity? That's pretty awesome and maybe I should look into it haha.
- JoshTriplett 6y ago
  Any measurement you like: volume of air, duration I can hold my breath, and most relevantly, how quickly I get "winded". There are specific swimming exercises you can do, as part of a routine, that build lung capacity. (Results may not generalize. It worked for me.)
  - ashtonkem 6y ago
    I imagine that anything that taxes lung capacity will help. I’ve picked up the French Horn in quarantine, and it seems to be strengthening several mouth and jaw muscles, along with the improvements to lung capacity you’d expect.

TomJansen 6y ago

Wow I always wanted to play didgeridoo, but now I definitely want to buy one! Does you have any suggestions on which one to order?

wincy 6y ago
The study I read about apnea said people were given simple plastic didgeridoos. Authentic ones are $100-$2000, and a plastic one with beeswax was $35 on Amazon.
dcolkitt 6y ago
I just got a cheap knockoff on Amazon, because I've got young kids who are... destructive... However at least so far, the cheap one seems to work really well and I haven't any problems as a novice player.

1e-9 6y ago

Singing also appears to reduce snoring and sleep apnea by strengthening the pharyngeal muscles.[1] [1] https://file.scirp.org/Html/5-2460085_31850.htm https://file.scirp.org/Html/5-2460085_31850.htm

tlb 6y ago

Might some other instruments work too? Harmonica played in blues style (with bends) seems to work the palate muscles pretty hard. Not that I don’t love didgeridoo music :-/

paragraft 6y ago
I remember being fairly asthmatic as a kid until a year of clarinet. I also enjoyed rather suddenly being able to hold my breath over the duration of a nearby bridge in car trips, a talent I lorded over my brother who hadn't opted for a wind instrument...

odysseus 6y ago

Which one did you get?

dcolkitt 6y ago
Got this low-priced bamboo didgeridoo off Amazon[1] for $35. It's definitely not authentic or the best in the world, but it's surprisingly well constructed and aesthetic. [1] https://www.amazon.com/Meinl-Percussion-DDG1-BK-Didgeridoo-Painted/dp/B00275G6XQ/ref=sr_1_13?crid=3P4VNBFGTYVU5&dchild=1&keywords=didgeridoo&qid=1591418655&sprefix=didgerei%2Caps%2C343&sr=8-13 https://www.amazon.com/Meinl-Percussion-DDG1-BK-Didgeridoo-P...
- odysseus 6y ago
  Thanks!

lemonberry 6y ago

Great tip, thanks! I ordered one as well. I've had respiratory issues since I was a child and this sounds like a fun way to work on it. I love the didgeridoo. One of my favorite albums to listen to while working is Aphex Twin's 'Digeridoo'. It's worth checking out.