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> The idea of controlling your life and the optimistic view that one is able to mould it towards an ideal stems in Modernistic tradition. Okay, that's your vie

> The idea of controlling your life and the optimistic view that one is able to mould it towards an ideal stems in Modernistic tradition. Okay, that's your view. I've taken control in the areas listed, I pay attention to what I'm doing, I'm journaling, noticing what improves my well-being and it's been a great journey that is helping me with my depression tendencies. I am proud to feel that I now have control to go to sleep over Youtube rabbit holes till the sun comes up, etc. etc. I am moulding myself and it's largely thanks to helpful material that doesn't just say you are good as you are, keep being a slob who never exercises, procrastinates eternally, etc. Keeping my wakeup time constant and going running first thing in the morning has helped me a ton. The exercise and the regular wake up makes me sleepy in the evening, I don't need coffee in the morning etc. Things do work. > Human minds are doing poorly at self diagnosing, while it's very hard for others to spot the signs of mental health issues. Mental health is also deeply woven into the identity and the personality of individuals. Personal struggles are very much part of being an individual. I don't want my struggles with my sleep schedule to be part of being an individual. Nor do I want my gaming addiction to define myself. Nor my anxieties. You don't realize that this attitude of "anything goes", "you are okay", "no lifestyle can be ever better than any other" can give people the idea that there is nothing for them to do. That things will necessarily stay the same until some big social revolution comes sometime in a few... decades? People can take action here and now however small. The feeling of a bit of control and agency can do wonders and can snowball into great things.

nonbirithm 6y ago
The point is that statements like "you are not okay" can be misconstrued depending on the mentality of the subject. The simplistic version of this is telling a depressed person they should "lighten up." But such a person may not have the resources to just change their mood on a whim, and when they also realize this and internalize it, they may become defensive. If they are unable to follow this "simple advice" to just become "okay" again in the context of society at large, their reaction could only reinforce those self-destructive thoughts. Because I am unable to just do these simple things, then what is my value in life, and so on. There can be a meta to this mentality. A lot of such people could be well aware they are not okay, and still not have any intention to get better, for a variety of reasons. The assumption is that every person wants to act for their own benefit. There are some people who only want to act for their own detriment. Someone defensive enough could just twist the words of "you could do better," which are completely well-intended, into meaning "but I'm failing to, and that is my fault, and that means I am not good enough for you." They can just believe the helper thinks less of them because they just can't do what they say, and ignore anything they say to the contrary, to make a point. And that is what is defined as "success" for them - proving that they are not good enough to the people that want them to improve, through their own actions. So with that mindset it is an endless negative feedback loop that will frustrate everyone trying to genuinely help the person, until they all give up or nothing ever improves and then said person is left alone with their own thoughts. And then anything could happen. But that is not to say that it's the same with anyone who is genuinely willing to listen and take advice to heart. You can choose to say "yes, and here are the steps I'll take to get to 'okay'". It's just that not all people are open to advice, and sometimes the only way to make those people listen is to pay other people to force their own worldviews on them (therapists), "for their own good," like a parent would to a naive child who refuses to listen. And in the end, some people still cannot be changed.
- bonoboTP 6y ago
  It's very hard to give advice in general. That's why the wise teachers used to mentor mentees one on one, there's little wisdom that applies in all circumstances. Advice expresses a direction, and if you are already too far in the other way, you need to be pointed backwards. If you think all it takes is willpower and you force and force till you break down and conclude that you're just worthless, then you're doing it wrong. There is a sense in which self-improvement as a concept is bullshit, in the sense that Alan Watts expresses here: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=vlNVQ-_y4-0 https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=vlNVQ-_y4-0 Ultimately nothing is "deeply broken" in some metaphysical sense in this universe. When we say something is "bad" it just a shorthand to mean we don't want it to be like that. It isn't bad deep down in the fabric of the physical universe. The universe is very aloof and unresponsive and ignorant of what we want or not. It's not trying to spite you when you fail, it just doesn't know what the hell we want from it. When my shoes get dirty, it's not because the world has decided to spite me and make me angry. Reality has no concept of "dirt", it doesn't know that I didn't intentionally scoop up the dirt with my shoes while walking. It's the same mechanism that we sometimes use to intentionally get sticky materials onto a surface. The way to communicate what you want from reality is through action, because that's the language that reality speaks. The whole self-improvement business has to be done in an intricate balance between taking it playfully and taking it seriously. This is really hard to express properly in a comment. Ultimately you will always have something else to desire, something else to work towards, nothing will be ultimately and finally satisfactory unless you also work on your mindset. But there are better and worse states of being in some sense. Having anxiety, depression, insomnia, brain fog, addiction, obesity etc. is in some very real sense worse than being fit and in a good mood by default. With the caveats above. Making people want something is almost impossible. Nobody could ever make me exercise a few years ago. It was just not part of my identity. I thought the gym was for just for loud tough gym bros on steroids looking to get more one night stands. Blog posts and articles like this slowly accumulate in the back of one's mind. And when shit gets really rough and you by yourself come to the realization that you will now do something. Not because you have to or it's your duty or because anything, but you just know that you will now do something because you know things are not going well. Then if you stored these tips up, you may say, you know what, I'm going to actually try that thing I've read about so much in the context of mental health and depression. You will have something to reach for. Sure there can be other underlying causes for why your life is derailed. But first and foremost you need to fix yourself as a biological homo sapiens to a certain level so that you can engage in the complex task of untangling why you slid off the road. (Beyond a certain point you need a therapist clearly, but only beyond a certain point). Once you have the mental clarity and energy and a baseline okayish mood, you can think of what lead to all this. Maybe you're giving 200% at work, trying to satisfy everyone, while others are actually taking credit for your work who work way less intensely. Maybe you're pushing hard at work to become a martyr and aren't actually using your energy in an efficient manner and others are more ahead because they are working more efficiently not harder. Maybe you seek validation in your professional life because your intimate relationships are failing. Why are they failing, why do you have no friends, are there perhaps practical issues involved, do you commute too long, could you move closer to places where socializing would be easier etc etc. But you cannot begin to tackle these questions is you're in the loop of rough sleep, tons of caffeine, 200% hard work for someone else, stuffing yourself with ice cream and chocolate at home alone, then binge watching stupid youtube videos while downing beer after beer, staying up late, and repeating the cycle. Don't question it with 23 additional meta levels of buts and ifs and counterintuitive speculations that it will then mean that I am X, Y, Z. Or that it will mean that I should have already done it. Or that I have to admit something or judge myself or I won't be able to keep it up, that I tried so many things already or whatever. Too much thinking. Just do it, shoes on, no thinking, go for a walk/jog. Care for your biological animal side. No questions, you don't need to rationalize it, you don't have to have a great scientific explanation. There can always be questions and doubts. But fixing basic lifestyle will be beneficial. There's no way you're going to end up worse by fixing these. I found it to be very beneficial to read Zen texts and koans and listen to Alan Watts to stop the destructive thought loops and realize their absurdity. But surely, sometimes all it takes is not conceptual intellectual advice, just a hug, a gentle look, a soothing voice etc. But an article cannot provide this by its nature, so it will be about practical, conceptual things.
CaptArmchair 6y ago
Of course. And that's a very valid want. You're at this point because you came to an understanding about yourself and that you don't have to let those issues define who you are. At the same time, who you are today is very much someone who faces this challenge, and this is intrinsically a part of your identity. This is neither good or bad. There's no judgement or value attribution here. The observation here is that you wouldn't be who you are today if your life took a different road, either by your own choice or by circumstance. My point isn't that life is pre-destined or pre-determined. Each moment is an opportunity to do something that pushes your life in one way or another. But the opportunities and the choices life hands you? Those aren't infinite and neither are you in complete control over what will cross your road. Sleep, eating, stress management, exercise,... those are all good habits that will help open doors to other sets of opportunities and choices which you wouldn't have if you didn't mind them at all. But in my view, the author overstates their importance to the point where he simply ends up disregarding many other factors that determine one's mental well being which often have a larger impact.
- bonoboTP 6y ago
  I can agree with that. I think it all depends on the person and only someone who deeply knows them can give them the right advice. And that CAN in some cases be a harsh one, if all their life they were coddled, it can be good to hear a stern voice that tells them that they are shit right now, a disgrace of their species, but they have the power to change etc. This is indeed the strategy of some gurus or even clinicians (perhaps with different words). In other cases you just listen, you just nourish, just hug and radiate love and they can, over the years, perhaps open up as a flower and work their way through their issues. If done in the wrong way around, the person may just get crushed under the weight of it all, while in the other case they may grow comfortable in all the coddling and now won't even want to fix things, because "having issues" is what gets them all the hugs and kisses. Some respond more to rational reasoning, some to emotional ones. There is no general recipe.

nonbirithm 6y ago

The point is that statements like "you are not okay" can be misconstrued depending on the mentality of the subject. The simplistic version of this is telling a depressed person they should "lighten up." But such a person may not have the resources to just change their mood on a whim, and when they also realize this and internalize it, they may become defensive. If they are unable to follow this "simple advice" to just become "okay" again in the context of society at large, their reaction could only reinforce those self-destructive thoughts. Because I am unable to just do these simple things, then what is my value in life, and so on. There can be a meta to this mentality. A lot of such people could be well aware they are not okay, and still not have any intention to get better, for a variety of reasons. The assumption is that every person wants to act for their own benefit. There are some people who only want to act for their own detriment. Someone defensive enough could just twist the words of "you could do better," which are completely well-intended, into meaning "but I'm failing to, and that is my fault, and that means I am not good enough for you." They can just believe the helper thinks less of them because they just can't do what they say, and ignore anything they say to the contrary, to make a point. And that is what is defined as "success" for them - proving that they are not good enough to the people that want them to improve, through their own actions. So with that mindset it is an endless negative feedback loop that will frustrate everyone trying to genuinely help the person, until they all give up or nothing ever improves and then said person is left alone with their own thoughts. And then anything could happen. But that is not to say that it's the same with anyone who is genuinely willing to listen and take advice to heart. You can choose to say "yes, and here are the steps I'll take to get to 'okay'". It's just that not all people are open to advice, and sometimes the only way to make those people listen is to pay other people to force their own worldviews on them (therapists), "for their own good," like a parent would to a naive child who refuses to listen. And in the end, some people still cannot be changed.

bonoboTP 6y ago
It's very hard to give advice in general. That's why the wise teachers used to mentor mentees one on one, there's little wisdom that applies in all circumstances. Advice expresses a direction, and if you are already too far in the other way, you need to be pointed backwards. If you think all it takes is willpower and you force and force till you break down and conclude that you're just worthless, then you're doing it wrong. There is a sense in which self-improvement as a concept is bullshit, in the sense that Alan Watts expresses here: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=vlNVQ-_y4-0 https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=vlNVQ-_y4-0 Ultimately nothing is "deeply broken" in some metaphysical sense in this universe. When we say something is "bad" it just a shorthand to mean we don't want it to be like that. It isn't bad deep down in the fabric of the physical universe. The universe is very aloof and unresponsive and ignorant of what we want or not. It's not trying to spite you when you fail, it just doesn't know what the hell we want from it. When my shoes get dirty, it's not because the world has decided to spite me and make me angry. Reality has no concept of "dirt", it doesn't know that I didn't intentionally scoop up the dirt with my shoes while walking. It's the same mechanism that we sometimes use to intentionally get sticky materials onto a surface. The way to communicate what you want from reality is through action, because that's the language that reality speaks. The whole self-improvement business has to be done in an intricate balance between taking it playfully and taking it seriously. This is really hard to express properly in a comment. Ultimately you will always have something else to desire, something else to work towards, nothing will be ultimately and finally satisfactory unless you also work on your mindset. But there are better and worse states of being in some sense. Having anxiety, depression, insomnia, brain fog, addiction, obesity etc. is in some very real sense worse than being fit and in a good mood by default. With the caveats above. Making people want something is almost impossible. Nobody could ever make me exercise a few years ago. It was just not part of my identity. I thought the gym was for just for loud tough gym bros on steroids looking to get more one night stands. Blog posts and articles like this slowly accumulate in the back of one's mind. And when shit gets really rough and you by yourself come to the realization that you will now do something. Not because you have to or it's your duty or because anything, but you just know that you will now do something because you know things are not going well. Then if you stored these tips up, you may say, you know what, I'm going to actually try that thing I've read about so much in the context of mental health and depression. You will have something to reach for. Sure there can be other underlying causes for why your life is derailed. But first and foremost you need to fix yourself as a biological homo sapiens to a certain level so that you can engage in the complex task of untangling why you slid off the road. (Beyond a certain point you need a therapist clearly, but only beyond a certain point). Once you have the mental clarity and energy and a baseline okayish mood, you can think of what lead to all this. Maybe you're giving 200% at work, trying to satisfy everyone, while others are actually taking credit for your work who work way less intensely. Maybe you're pushing hard at work to become a martyr and aren't actually using your energy in an efficient manner and others are more ahead because they are working more efficiently not harder. Maybe you seek validation in your professional life because your intimate relationships are failing. Why are they failing, why do you have no friends, are there perhaps practical issues involved, do you commute too long, could you move closer to places where socializing would be easier etc etc. But you cannot begin to tackle these questions is you're in the loop of rough sleep, tons of caffeine, 200% hard work for someone else, stuffing yourself with ice cream and chocolate at home alone, then binge watching stupid youtube videos while downing beer after beer, staying up late, and repeating the cycle. Don't question it with 23 additional meta levels of buts and ifs and counterintuitive speculations that it will then mean that I am X, Y, Z. Or that it will mean that I should have already done it. Or that I have to admit something or judge myself or I won't be able to keep it up, that I tried so many things already or whatever. Too much thinking. Just do it, shoes on, no thinking, go for a walk/jog. Care for your biological animal side. No questions, you don't need to rationalize it, you don't have to have a great scientific explanation. There can always be questions and doubts. But fixing basic lifestyle will be beneficial. There's no way you're going to end up worse by fixing these. I found it to be very beneficial to read Zen texts and koans and listen to Alan Watts to stop the destructive thought loops and realize their absurdity. But surely, sometimes all it takes is not conceptual intellectual advice, just a hug, a gentle look, a soothing voice etc. But an article cannot provide this by its nature, so it will be about practical, conceptual things.

CaptArmchair 6y ago

Of course. And that's a very valid want. You're at this point because you came to an understanding about yourself and that you don't have to let those issues define who you are. At the same time, who you are today is very much someone who faces this challenge, and this is intrinsically a part of your identity. This is neither good or bad. There's no judgement or value attribution here. The observation here is that you wouldn't be who you are today if your life took a different road, either by your own choice or by circumstance. My point isn't that life is pre-destined or pre-determined. Each moment is an opportunity to do something that pushes your life in one way or another. But the opportunities and the choices life hands you? Those aren't infinite and neither are you in complete control over what will cross your road. Sleep, eating, stress management, exercise,... those are all good habits that will help open doors to other sets of opportunities and choices which you wouldn't have if you didn't mind them at all. But in my view, the author overstates their importance to the point where he simply ends up disregarding many other factors that determine one's mental well being which often have a larger impact.

bonoboTP 6y ago
I can agree with that. I think it all depends on the person and only someone who deeply knows them can give them the right advice. And that CAN in some cases be a harsh one, if all their life they were coddled, it can be good to hear a stern voice that tells them that they are shit right now, a disgrace of their species, but they have the power to change etc. This is indeed the strategy of some gurus or even clinicians (perhaps with different words). In other cases you just listen, you just nourish, just hug and radiate love and they can, over the years, perhaps open up as a flower and work their way through their issues. If done in the wrong way around, the person may just get crushed under the weight of it all, while in the other case they may grow comfortable in all the coddling and now won't even want to fix things, because "having issues" is what gets them all the hugs and kisses. Some respond more to rational reasoning, some to emotional ones. There is no general recipe.