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I think if TD were banned in 2016, there's a decent chance the world would look even worse and more polarized today, due to the backlash and chain reactions tha

I think if TD were banned in 2016, there's a decent chance the world would look even worse and more polarized today, due to the backlash and chain reactions that would have occurred. Picture "TOP SOCIAL MEDIA COMPANY BANS SUPPORT OF THE PRESIDENT" headlines running for months. Picture Trump bringing it up in hundreds of speeches and tweets, demanding regulation and saying how unfair it is that he and his supporters are being censored and silenced and attacked by Silicon Valley and the left. (He's already doing that, but this would give him way more ammo.) Picture he and his supporters pointing to it as evidence that The Elites and the liberals and the tech industry are out to get him and out to get half of the country, and that only he can defend their liberties and bring our country and corrupt establishment back from the brink. Also, all of those users would just flock to alternative off-site communities that make TD look like a bastion of reason and civility by comparison. Huffman's not in an easy position, here.

vegannet 6y ago
I don’t think this alarmist view makes much sense because all of that has happened, and more. The Right (the group of angry young white men inhabiting r/the_donald not conservative voters) spend every moment outraged about censorship and supposed sleights against them — real or not. Everything you describe is happening every single day and has been since before Donald Trump and will continue after him. If the_donald had been shut down it would have been a positive, without question.
- deleted 6y ago
  [deleted]
- meowface 6y ago
  > Everything you describe is happening every single day and has been since before Donald Trump and will continue after him. Yes, it has been and it is and it will, but everything is relative. No matter how bad a bad situation is, it can always get worse. You may not like the US now, but for all we know you could be begging to return to June 2020 when June 2021 comes around. Every little thing like this increases his odds of re-election and the odds that people will think he's right or at least has a point. If reddit bans the subreddit for him and his supporters and doesn't ban any others, that could actually turn some non-Trump voters into Trump voters, and definitely increases the odds that his people will get out and vote. >spend every moment outraged about censorship and supposed sleights against them — real or not Sure, but then here they would have a real sleight, a real example of censorship, and a concrete and empirical thing to be outraged about, as well as a coherent and persuasive argument about the larger implications of the censorship and potential future risks they may face. It's the perfect way to empower them and bolster their intensity and their numbers. He is very good at taking inflammatory stories, running with them, and getting other people fired up about them, too. He is extremely persuasive not only to his base, but also can be to some people who are closer to the middle. Reddit banning the subreddit and not allowing another one be created for him would be an escalation and a turning point. It's a major line in the sand, and would be a major talking point for him. It may sound alarmist, but I'm saying this because I am genuinely alarmed at what could have happened and what might happen in the future. His supporters exist in the tens of millions, and they're going to talk with each other one way or another. If they're unable to talk with each other or about him without being banned on popular websites, they're left with no choice but to instead do it on insane cult-like conspiracy theory websites (trust me, if you think TD is bad, just try looking at some of those sites), where they'll be increasingly polarized and will increasingly believe even more dangerous and extravagantly false things. The more large organizations try to restrict a particular group, the angrier they get and the more they feel like powerful forces are out to get them and that there's an organized conspiracy behind it. It's like trying to push an air bubble out of some material - you just end up displacing it, and if you apply too much pressure, the thing's going to pop. Also, as other commenters have pointed out, there are lots of very polarized and even extremist people on the opposite side, and if reddit removes one side and does nothing to the other, then all of the above gets amplified even more. I honestly agree with how Zuckerberg and Huffman are handling this. They both clearly personally dislike Trump, but they understand the big picture. It's kind of like geopolitics.
  - syshum 6y ago
    >> that could actually turn some non-Trump voters into Trump voters That ship has already sailed most likely. I voted Libertarian in 2016 as I have for every presidential election that I have voted in. 2020 there is a high probability that I will vote Republican for president for the first time in my life, not for sure yet but it is EXACTLY because of the extreme support for censorship, de-platforming and cancel culture that is coming from the Authoritarian left that has my vote is wavering
    - meowface 6y ago
      The crazy thing to me is how so few people on the left realize and understand this. Many people in this thread just don't seem to get it at all. I'm a left-leaning person and always will be, but sometimes I get really frustrated at how people I otherwise agree with just never fail to consistently shoot themselves and each other in the foot. They'll read your and my posts and just think it's a bunch of nonsense and once again be flabbergasted when Trump wins again. (I'm not 100% certain he'll win, but I definitely am over 60% confident.)
- tw000001 6y ago
  >the group of angry young white men inhabiting r/the_donald not conservative voter The degree to which casual anti-white racism has been normalized on reddit is abhorrent. Even moreso when these people claim to champion anti-racism. Reddit can't die soon enough. It is a dangerous bastion of propaganda - the comments are designed to look authentic but none of the discourse is truly organic because of a combination of keyword shadowbanning, echo-chamber reinforcing voting algorithms, and heavy handed moderation by full on activists. Millions of people believe they are viewing authentic conversation and while they have their guard down the admin effectively define acceptable viewpoints for entire subs.
  - Avicebron 6y ago
    It's been normalized everywhere, it comes off to me as some sort of badge of honor for people to blame all the ills of the world on one race. Amazing how this doesn't fly for other groups.
    - andreilys 6y ago
      Scapegoating is a wonderful thing
  - lxeiqr 6y ago
    It's a bit sad how there aren't many places on the internet left that strive for the balance between no moderation (for example - various anonymous imageboards) and an extremely biased one (especially towards political opinions, eg. on Reddit and Twitter). In addition to that there are problems with bots made to influence public discussion. In my opinion, that's the main reason why you shouldn't base your opinions on the general public on content you see on the internet - it's relatively easy to manipulate any opinion in a way that it seems supported by a large (and loud) majority.
0bscur3 6y ago
This is 100% what would have happen, and Fox News would air this endlessly. This would make the SV and "the left" look worse and more political, including in the eyes of fairly moderate people.
GaryNumanVevo 6y ago
And? De-platforming works very effectively. Look at 8chan, Gab and Voat. All drowning in server costs trying to host "safe spaces" for certain opinions.
- syshum 6y ago
  Yes.. Censorship is wonderful and make no mistake "de-platforming" is censorship
  - GaryNumanVevo 6y ago
    We make value judgements all the time. Reddit puts a NSFW spoiler on violence, porn, etc. Is that considered censorship? Is it really censorship if r/t_d had violated numerous Reddit ToS rules? Rules which all users agreed on when signing up. Make no mistake, it's a no brainer to ban a community that is both outwardly hateful, and regularly abuses the rules of the site they're hosted on.
    - syshum 6y ago
      >>Reddit puts a NSFW spoiler on violence, porn, etc. Is that considered censorship? yes and no. It is lesser because it empowers the user to self select if they want to see NSFW items. That is the key. I put the quarantine on the same level as this, so I have less of an issue with that than if they just banned it outright. >Is it really censorship if r/t_d had violated numerous Reddit ToS rules? yes, let me be clear Reddit is perfectly in its legal rights to censor anything they want. They can censor directly all Republicans if they want. They however can not magically make it not censorship simply because they add a line in their ToS.. that is not how free expression works. a Website that only allows car related topics censors all speech not related to cars The problem for Reddit is for years they advertised themselves as a Open Access forum for all topics and discussions, the point 6 font terms of service not with standing. If reddit has a BIG BOLD header on the HomePage that reads "Conservatives not welcome here" then it would be a different discussion for me >> outwardly hateful, Ahh the old "hate speech" non-sense. I reject this premise as "hate speech" is such a subjected term that if you ask 10 people what qualifies as "hate speech" you will get 30 different answers based on context and other things Further Reddit ignores their own policy on hate speech and promotion of violence provided the speaker is the "correct" political affiliation and that target is the "wrong" political affiliation
deleted 6y ago
[deleted]
specialist 6y ago
This is not a binary choice. There's a lot of daylight between censorship and simply not amplifying outrageous behavior. We could break feedback loops, add friction, disallow retweets (forcing copypasta), not show likes, etc.

vegannet 6y ago

I don’t think this alarmist view makes much sense because all of that has happened, and more. The Right (the group of angry young white men inhabiting r/the_donald not conservative voters) spend every moment outraged about censorship and supposed sleights against them — real or not. Everything you describe is happening every single day and has been since before Donald Trump and will continue after him. If the_donald had been shut down it would have been a positive, without question.

deleted 6y ago
[deleted]
meowface 6y ago
> Everything you describe is happening every single day and has been since before Donald Trump and will continue after him. Yes, it has been and it is and it will, but everything is relative. No matter how bad a bad situation is, it can always get worse. You may not like the US now, but for all we know you could be begging to return to June 2020 when June 2021 comes around. Every little thing like this increases his odds of re-election and the odds that people will think he's right or at least has a point. If reddit bans the subreddit for him and his supporters and doesn't ban any others, that could actually turn some non-Trump voters into Trump voters, and definitely increases the odds that his people will get out and vote. >spend every moment outraged about censorship and supposed sleights against them — real or not Sure, but then here they would have a real sleight, a real example of censorship, and a concrete and empirical thing to be outraged about, as well as a coherent and persuasive argument about the larger implications of the censorship and potential future risks they may face. It's the perfect way to empower them and bolster their intensity and their numbers. He is very good at taking inflammatory stories, running with them, and getting other people fired up about them, too. He is extremely persuasive not only to his base, but also can be to some people who are closer to the middle. Reddit banning the subreddit and not allowing another one be created for him would be an escalation and a turning point. It's a major line in the sand, and would be a major talking point for him. It may sound alarmist, but I'm saying this because I am genuinely alarmed at what could have happened and what might happen in the future. His supporters exist in the tens of millions, and they're going to talk with each other one way or another. If they're unable to talk with each other or about him without being banned on popular websites, they're left with no choice but to instead do it on insane cult-like conspiracy theory websites (trust me, if you think TD is bad, just try looking at some of those sites), where they'll be increasingly polarized and will increasingly believe even more dangerous and extravagantly false things. The more large organizations try to restrict a particular group, the angrier they get and the more they feel like powerful forces are out to get them and that there's an organized conspiracy behind it. It's like trying to push an air bubble out of some material - you just end up displacing it, and if you apply too much pressure, the thing's going to pop. Also, as other commenters have pointed out, there are lots of very polarized and even extremist people on the opposite side, and if reddit removes one side and does nothing to the other, then all of the above gets amplified even more. I honestly agree with how Zuckerberg and Huffman are handling this. They both clearly personally dislike Trump, but they understand the big picture. It's kind of like geopolitics.
- syshum 6y ago
  >> that could actually turn some non-Trump voters into Trump voters That ship has already sailed most likely. I voted Libertarian in 2016 as I have for every presidential election that I have voted in. 2020 there is a high probability that I will vote Republican for president for the first time in my life, not for sure yet but it is EXACTLY because of the extreme support for censorship, de-platforming and cancel culture that is coming from the Authoritarian left that has my vote is wavering
  - meowface 6y ago
    The crazy thing to me is how so few people on the left realize and understand this. Many people in this thread just don't seem to get it at all. I'm a left-leaning person and always will be, but sometimes I get really frustrated at how people I otherwise agree with just never fail to consistently shoot themselves and each other in the foot. They'll read your and my posts and just think it's a bunch of nonsense and once again be flabbergasted when Trump wins again. (I'm not 100% certain he'll win, but I definitely am over 60% confident.)
tw000001 6y ago
>the group of angry young white men inhabiting r/the_donald not conservative voter The degree to which casual anti-white racism has been normalized on reddit is abhorrent. Even moreso when these people claim to champion anti-racism. Reddit can't die soon enough. It is a dangerous bastion of propaganda - the comments are designed to look authentic but none of the discourse is truly organic because of a combination of keyword shadowbanning, echo-chamber reinforcing voting algorithms, and heavy handed moderation by full on activists. Millions of people believe they are viewing authentic conversation and while they have their guard down the admin effectively define acceptable viewpoints for entire subs.
- Avicebron 6y ago
  It's been normalized everywhere, it comes off to me as some sort of badge of honor for people to blame all the ills of the world on one race. Amazing how this doesn't fly for other groups.
  - andreilys 6y ago
    Scapegoating is a wonderful thing
- lxeiqr 6y ago
  It's a bit sad how there aren't many places on the internet left that strive for the balance between no moderation (for example - various anonymous imageboards) and an extremely biased one (especially towards political opinions, eg. on Reddit and Twitter). In addition to that there are problems with bots made to influence public discussion. In my opinion, that's the main reason why you shouldn't base your opinions on the general public on content you see on the internet - it's relatively easy to manipulate any opinion in a way that it seems supported by a large (and loud) majority.

0bscur3 6y ago

This is 100% what would have happen, and Fox News would air this endlessly. This would make the SV and "the left" look worse and more political, including in the eyes of fairly moderate people.

GaryNumanVevo 6y ago

And? De-platforming works very effectively. Look at 8chan, Gab and Voat. All drowning in server costs trying to host "safe spaces" for certain opinions.

syshum 6y ago
Yes.. Censorship is wonderful and make no mistake "de-platforming" is censorship
- GaryNumanVevo 6y ago
  We make value judgements all the time. Reddit puts a NSFW spoiler on violence, porn, etc. Is that considered censorship? Is it really censorship if r/t_d had violated numerous Reddit ToS rules? Rules which all users agreed on when signing up. Make no mistake, it's a no brainer to ban a community that is both outwardly hateful, and regularly abuses the rules of the site they're hosted on.
  - syshum 6y ago
    >>Reddit puts a NSFW spoiler on violence, porn, etc. Is that considered censorship? yes and no. It is lesser because it empowers the user to self select if they want to see NSFW items. That is the key. I put the quarantine on the same level as this, so I have less of an issue with that than if they just banned it outright. >Is it really censorship if r/t_d had violated numerous Reddit ToS rules? yes, let me be clear Reddit is perfectly in its legal rights to censor anything they want. They can censor directly all Republicans if they want. They however can not magically make it not censorship simply because they add a line in their ToS.. that is not how free expression works. a Website that only allows car related topics censors all speech not related to cars The problem for Reddit is for years they advertised themselves as a Open Access forum for all topics and discussions, the point 6 font terms of service not with standing. If reddit has a BIG BOLD header on the HomePage that reads "Conservatives not welcome here" then it would be a different discussion for me >> outwardly hateful, Ahh the old "hate speech" non-sense. I reject this premise as "hate speech" is such a subjected term that if you ask 10 people what qualifies as "hate speech" you will get 30 different answers based on context and other things Further Reddit ignores their own policy on hate speech and promotion of violence provided the speaker is the "correct" political affiliation and that target is the "wrong" political affiliation

deleted 6y ago

[deleted]

specialist 6y ago

This is not a binary choice. There's a lot of daylight between censorship and simply not amplifying outrageous behavior. We could break feedback loops, add friction, disallow retweets (forcing copypasta), not show likes, etc.