6 ms·

It's a witch-hunt, plain and simple. Of course the police needs reform, demilitarization, higher standards, more accountability, and better educational requirem

It's a witch-hunt, plain and simple. Of course the police needs reform, demilitarization, higher standards, more accountability, and better educational requirements. How you get any of those things by demonizing the police and making it a left-vs-right political issue is beyond me.

bradly 6y ago
> How you get any of those things by demonizing the police and making it a left-vs-right political issue is beyond me. If not this way the, how do you get it? It's been hundreds of years. The U.S. is not immune to revolutions and revolutions have changed corrupt states for a very long time.
- ceilingcorner 6y ago
  Study other countries which have less police violence? Incorporate more community involvement? Etc. The idea that society doesn't need some sort of police force is so hilariously naive, I am in disbelief that serious people are suggesting it. Clearly they are from an extremely privileged background and never had to deal with living in poor areas. The police absolutely need reform, but to pretend that they're more of a threat than criminals is factually false.
  - stormbrew 6y ago
    I'm sure it seems very alarming that people are 'demonizing the police' if you're new to this issue -- in which case this week has woken you up to something that's been a problem for people for a very very long time. But it is not a new issue, and people's fear and pain at it is genuine. To some segments of society (who are not criminals), the police absolutely are more of a threat than criminals. When there are people who are terrified of getting pulled over by a cop in traffic because they know it might end up with them shot, even though they are in every way a model citizen, there is a deep problem. Also, police as we know them are only a couple hundred years old. No one is saying there doesn't need to be people who fill most of the roles police do in modern society, they are saying the structure the police embody is rotten and can be replaced with better things. And in my experience, it's the least privileged who take the hardest line on police abolition. Most 'privileged' people have, like yours, a lukewarm "some reform would be good" perspective.
    - ceilingcorner 6y ago
      I'm not new to this issue and I haven't "been woken up". As I just said, I actually have experience living in a crime-ridden area. Of course the police are a problem but again, the facts simply don't line up to your statements. The police killed 1,098 people in 2019. https://mappingpoliceviolence.org https://mappingpoliceviolence.org Compare that to the overall murder rate (not including other crimes.) https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_U.S._states_by_homicide_rate https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_U.S._states_by_homicid... > To some segments of society (who are not criminals), the police absolutely are more of a threat than criminals. So getting rid of the police will have no effect whatsoever on the amount of criminals or crime? It will simply remain the same? That, again, is extremely naive. As usual, the predominant political news topic overrides all rational thought. One week, we have a mass shooting and call for more police and less guns. The next, the police unjustly kill someone and everyone wants to abolish them entirely.
      - stormbrew 6y ago
        I like how you just completely ignore the part about how no one is saying "abolish the police and replace them with absolutely nothing we love crime!" You also lump various different debates all into one and assume the people you disagree with are in alignment with each other on all of them. But it's the other side that's had its "rational thought" overridden. These are not a good faith arguments.
        ceilingcorner 6y ago
        I'm not really sure what you're arguing for. It seemed to be that "the police are more of a threat than criminals", which is factually untrue, even today, before any so-called abolition of the police (which is what people are calling for.) Also, I am not "on a side" and my original comment was calling out this attempt to make it a black-and-white issue. There are more than two options.
        stormbrew 6y ago
        That the police are more of a threat to criminals to specific subsets of the population is absolutely, unquestionably, factually true. There is more than enough personal attestation to the experiences of black and queer people (including those who otherwise have privilege in some ways) in the US with police to say this with confidence. They aren't to you perhaps. And again, when people call for abolition of the police they are not talking about leaving a complete vacuum of every function they serve in society. They are calling for dismantling police departments completely and replacing their functions in society with other, more directly capable, social systems. You may want to actually read some of what's been written on the topic instead of having a knee jerk reaction that assumes the worst.
  - bradly 6y ago
    I am more afraid of a police department that has no legal accountability than I am of a criminal.
marcinzm 6y ago
>How you get any of those things by demonizing the police and making it a left-vs-right political issue is beyond me. These aren't new issues, practically speaking every attempt at less radical solutions hasn't worked and there have been many. In the end, the solution will be filled with political compromise and the weaker your starting position the more compromise there will be.
- ceilingcorner 6y ago
  Surely the amount of police violence is less today than say, the early 1900s, when outright lynching was practically sponsored by the police? You deny that there has been any progress?
  - deleted 6y ago
    [deleted]
  - marcinzm 6y ago
    Society as a whole has changed and I'd argue police have changed less than the rest of society. Given the videos from the last few days it's clear that the police see themselves as immune to consequences even in the age of social media, cell phone cameras and widespread public opposition.
    - ceilingcorner 6y ago
      Sure, I agree to that absolutely. But how you get from "the police needs radical reform" to "we don't need police, abolish them" is a mystery to me.
      - marcinzm 6y ago
        If I want a $200k salary I don't start the negotiations at $200k, I start them at $250k knowing that I will be argued down. Likewise, the fear of a radical approach drives those in power to actually implement a productive moderate approach. If all you have is the moderate approach than those in power will implement nothing of substance.
sg47 6y ago
Wait what? All the things you mentioned are table stakes. Till we have those things, there's effectively no police department. We have a bunch of empowered thugs roaming around unencumbered. We absolutely have to demonize (rather bring out their true color) in order to have any reasonable possibility of change.
- throwaway894345 6y ago
  How can these continuous variables be table stakes? That doesn't make sense. Type error.
throwaway894345 6y ago
> How you get any of those things by demonizing the police and making it a left-vs-right political issue is beyond me. I get this vibe as well. I want to interpret this charitably, but this seems antithetical to good faith participation. It feels like these people don't actually care about police brutality--any arbitrary partisan issue would suffice. Of course, I'm sure I'm misreading the situation (even though social psychology's most replicable studies predict exactly this sort of hyper-partisanship).
designdesign 6y ago
It's not a witch hunt if there's an actual problem.
vorpalhex 6y ago
To work towards a solution requires understanding the problem. Understanding problems on this scale is very hard and it's much easier to say empty phrases that please your base.

bradly 6y ago

> How you get any of those things by demonizing the police and making it a left-vs-right political issue is beyond me. If not this way the, how do you get it? It's been hundreds of years. The U.S. is not immune to revolutions and revolutions have changed corrupt states for a very long time.

ceilingcorner 6y ago
Study other countries which have less police violence? Incorporate more community involvement? Etc. The idea that society doesn't need some sort of police force is so hilariously naive, I am in disbelief that serious people are suggesting it. Clearly they are from an extremely privileged background and never had to deal with living in poor areas. The police absolutely need reform, but to pretend that they're more of a threat than criminals is factually false.
- stormbrew 6y ago
  I'm sure it seems very alarming that people are 'demonizing the police' if you're new to this issue -- in which case this week has woken you up to something that's been a problem for people for a very very long time. But it is not a new issue, and people's fear and pain at it is genuine. To some segments of society (who are not criminals), the police absolutely are more of a threat than criminals. When there are people who are terrified of getting pulled over by a cop in traffic because they know it might end up with them shot, even though they are in every way a model citizen, there is a deep problem. Also, police as we know them are only a couple hundred years old. No one is saying there doesn't need to be people who fill most of the roles police do in modern society, they are saying the structure the police embody is rotten and can be replaced with better things. And in my experience, it's the least privileged who take the hardest line on police abolition. Most 'privileged' people have, like yours, a lukewarm "some reform would be good" perspective.
  - ceilingcorner 6y ago
    I'm not new to this issue and I haven't "been woken up". As I just said, I actually have experience living in a crime-ridden area. Of course the police are a problem but again, the facts simply don't line up to your statements. The police killed 1,098 people in 2019. https://mappingpoliceviolence.org https://mappingpoliceviolence.org Compare that to the overall murder rate (not including other crimes.) https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_U.S._states_by_homicide_rate https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_U.S._states_by_homicid... > To some segments of society (who are not criminals), the police absolutely are more of a threat than criminals. So getting rid of the police will have no effect whatsoever on the amount of criminals or crime? It will simply remain the same? That, again, is extremely naive. As usual, the predominant political news topic overrides all rational thought. One week, we have a mass shooting and call for more police and less guns. The next, the police unjustly kill someone and everyone wants to abolish them entirely.
    - stormbrew 6y ago
      I like how you just completely ignore the part about how no one is saying "abolish the police and replace them with absolutely nothing we love crime!" You also lump various different debates all into one and assume the people you disagree with are in alignment with each other on all of them. But it's the other side that's had its "rational thought" overridden. These are not a good faith arguments.
      - ceilingcorner 6y ago
        I'm not really sure what you're arguing for. It seemed to be that "the police are more of a threat than criminals", which is factually untrue, even today, before any so-called abolition of the police (which is what people are calling for.) Also, I am not "on a side" and my original comment was calling out this attempt to make it a black-and-white issue. There are more than two options.
        stormbrew 6y ago
        That the police are more of a threat to criminals to specific subsets of the population is absolutely, unquestionably, factually true. There is more than enough personal attestation to the experiences of black and queer people (including those who otherwise have privilege in some ways) in the US with police to say this with confidence. They aren't to you perhaps. And again, when people call for abolition of the police they are not talking about leaving a complete vacuum of every function they serve in society. They are calling for dismantling police departments completely and replacing their functions in society with other, more directly capable, social systems. You may want to actually read some of what's been written on the topic instead of having a knee jerk reaction that assumes the worst.
- bradly 6y ago
  I am more afraid of a police department that has no legal accountability than I am of a criminal.

marcinzm 6y ago

>How you get any of those things by demonizing the police and making it a left-vs-right political issue is beyond me. These aren't new issues, practically speaking every attempt at less radical solutions hasn't worked and there have been many. In the end, the solution will be filled with political compromise and the weaker your starting position the more compromise there will be.

ceilingcorner 6y ago
Surely the amount of police violence is less today than say, the early 1900s, when outright lynching was practically sponsored by the police? You deny that there has been any progress?
- deleted 6y ago
  [deleted]
- marcinzm 6y ago
  Society as a whole has changed and I'd argue police have changed less than the rest of society. Given the videos from the last few days it's clear that the police see themselves as immune to consequences even in the age of social media, cell phone cameras and widespread public opposition.
  - ceilingcorner 6y ago
    Sure, I agree to that absolutely. But how you get from "the police needs radical reform" to "we don't need police, abolish them" is a mystery to me.
    - marcinzm 6y ago
      If I want a $200k salary I don't start the negotiations at $200k, I start them at $250k knowing that I will be argued down. Likewise, the fear of a radical approach drives those in power to actually implement a productive moderate approach. If all you have is the moderate approach than those in power will implement nothing of substance.

sg47 6y ago

Wait what? All the things you mentioned are table stakes. Till we have those things, there's effectively no police department. We have a bunch of empowered thugs roaming around unencumbered. We absolutely have to demonize (rather bring out their true color) in order to have any reasonable possibility of change.

throwaway894345 6y ago
How can these continuous variables be table stakes? That doesn't make sense. Type error.

throwaway894345 6y ago

> How you get any of those things by demonizing the police and making it a left-vs-right political issue is beyond me. I get this vibe as well. I want to interpret this charitably, but this seems antithetical to good faith participation. It feels like these people don't actually care about police brutality--any arbitrary partisan issue would suffice. Of course, I'm sure I'm misreading the situation (even though social psychology's most replicable studies predict exactly this sort of hyper-partisanship).

designdesign 6y ago

It's not a witch hunt if there's an actual problem.

vorpalhex 6y ago

To work towards a solution requires understanding the problem. Understanding problems on this scale is very hard and it's much easier to say empty phrases that please your base.